When did the light come on for you?

[litetruck]

I've been sucking lately on a 5-6 buy in down swing on 10NL, yes sir I do suck. I can't put people on hands and I tend to get chased out of a hand alot, playing passive and nitty. I only have about 18k hands under my belt and I'm wondering when the recall/experience factor is going to kick in. I see a lot of people posting hand histories and replies and I think to myself, I'm not even thinking of those things when I play. After how many hands, time, etc does the light finally come on?

[bigspenda73]

I still don't think much but Im in the same boat hands wise as you. It's tough to read hands at the 10NL level because villians ranges are so wide. Why not try to 1 table for an hour and before EVERY decision ask yourself what decision will have the most positive effect. After you can do this for 1 table then go to 2,3, etc..

You know my advice to you, I've only told you like 4-5 times now. I have not seen anyone lately move out of 10NL full ring.

[mrhappy333]

Is 10NL the black hole?

[Xioustic]

Play 19-hand poker at 10NL fullring.

Preflop: If you're going to raise with a strong hand (JJ+, AK), 3-5xBB +1xBB per limper. Call with a PP if the amount you're calling is equal to or less than 1/15th of the amount of money you can win in the hand. Call with SCs (76 or better) in MP or later when 2 or 3 people limp behind you.

Postflop: Bet pot postflop in position if nobody has bet and you have a midpair pocket pair or an overpair. Bet pot if you hit trips and there's a draw. Bet pot with TPTK. Check and call given pot odds for all your strong draws.

Join high VPIP with high avgpotsize. Make sure 3/4 of the table has $5 or more with them on the table to make your PPs the most profitable.

Play at fishy sites with good bonuses. Bodog is the new PartyPoker when it comes to 10NL: they accept American players, they make it easy for them to deposit, and they have players that sports gamble more often than they play poker at this level of buy-in.

I played ring for the first time at Bodog 10NL last night and now am up a phenomenal 9 buy-ins after only 3 hours of play. I was running hooottttt, and I followed this strategy perfectly coupled with the PP rule (call preflop if the amount of money you can win in the hand is 15*(theamountyouhavetocall) or more).

This is no fun if you aren't extremely patient. I do homework or work on a website while I do this. If I wasn't doing any of those things I'd be playing my usual SnG: I'm not a ring player.

Reading players is a leak with this many fish in a 10NL game if you join the right table/site. Reading players at this level is only key in a limit game because of how the payoffs work.

There are no poker books (that I know of) for the 10NL level, and there's a reason for that.

I'm an idiot for posting this with so few hands underneath my belt, so ignore me.

[swiggidy]

There isn't one big light. There are lots of little lights. Keep reading everything you can. I got several poker books from the library (cbus library, #1 in country, woot!!), in addition to the ones I own. So you'll slowly pick up on things. Why you don't call with some hands pre-flop. When/why/how much to bet the flop, etc. River play, light 3betting, playing postflop in a re-raised pot all still perplex me, I'm waiting for the light to flip on.

I haven't seen any of your hands, but ABC poker should be profitable for you. Read Renton's 169 hand guide (or re-read if necessary). Play like a nit.

[zook]

I just looked at my lifetime graph and my first 35k hands (almost half my total to date) were basically breakeven. If I hadn't luckboxed a big tourney win and cleared a lot in bonuses, I might have quit.

I agree with swigs that it won't be one big light, it will be a lot of little ones. Make sure you're reviewing your sessions and posting the difficult hands here. Early on that helped me as much as anything I think.

[mrhappy333]

dont play drunk, playing messed uo is -ev

[thnwkd]

light came on for me Feb 01 2007; I was doing major damage @ 50nl... moved to 100nl and it went out again...lol. So its still dark where i'm at

[Xioustic]

dont play drunk, playing messed uo is -ev

I'm a little drunk right now and I'm playing 10NL right now, wheeeeee.

I AM -EV

There, I said it.

[Miffed22001]

i played pretty average poker for 25k hands, just a small winner. Then i really strted to understand until i got to about 100k hands where i had a real 'enligtened' moment and promptly had a 15buy in downswing when i forgot the basics of poker.
Since then ive just managed to improve day by day session by session, but the moment when it all kicks in is probably after 30k hands when you either run really good for the first time, or really bad.

[Doublethe7]

i guess the problem is, you know many things about the game as you reading here and probably read some books too, but that things dont come to your mind while you're playing or you simply don't think about it.

what helped me alot when i was struggling with this problem was: each and every hand and each and every action before you hit any button on your screen say out loud to yourself WHY you are going to take this specific action. this made me much more aware of concepts i've already integrated in my game and things i have to work on. it also got me to make much better decisions in some spots.

Hope this helps,
Double

[chipper5711]

I must admit, before I played online poker, I thought I was a fairly good player. Boy was I wrong. Even after nearly 3 years of online poker, I'm still learning new things. So ya, like another poster said above, it is a series of lights that eventually come on. I figure I still have a long strand of lights left to light up before I can call it done.

[Pelion]

I broke even (read lost slowly) for a few months then the light came on and i figured out how to beat $2NL. Then I made myself a roll and moved up to 10NL, only to realise these guys were all pros who wtfpwnd me. I lost horribly until i realised they actually sucked worse than me. Then I crushed the 10NL game and built a 25NL roll. rinse and repeat for every time Ive moved up

every single level Ive played at so far has had its own light that has come on after a few weeks of playing there. Hopefully next time it happens Ill be able to beat any poker.... maybe it doesnt work like that though.

[chardrian]

I still play in the dark.

[jyms]

16/10 was a beacon in the dark, calling my name. I was struggling at $10NL with $300. Then it hit me, These guys suck, they have no idea what I'm doing, I stopped stealing blinds, C-betting into 3 and 4 players and started betting my bigger hands huge, hell anything over two pair and pot it, flop, turn and river. Stop tilting when they hit and just keep betting big with made hands, bet the river, a lot. And when you get to $50NL don't change a thing.

[flyingPenguin]

The lights will never come on for you if you don't make them. Experience doesn't just 'kick in'. You have to try to improve. At the stakes you play, you don't need to think about a lot of the things you see from higher stakes players, but you still need to think.

1. Every post flop decision you make, take some time on it (you have time to do this since you claim to be nitty). Think about what outs you have, and how strong your hand is, and whether that will likely beat your opponent.

2. Stop being passive. Particularly at these levels you want most postflop decisions to be a bet/raise or a fold. If you ever want to call, spend a long time thinking about why and have some good reasons. If you're thinking "there's still a chance I might have the best hand" it's probably time to fold. You generally call when you possibly don't have the best hand, but are given good odds.

3. Once you start being able to read hands, you will own these stakes.

Slightly offtopic, I think the biggest reason most really low stakes players are easy to beat is they call too much. They call with mid pair because they don't want to fold but don't want to put much money in. They call with the nuts because they don't want to scare you away. If you aren't one of them you will win.

BTW, the lights are going on and off all the time for me as I change stakes and sites.

[donkbee]

I stopped stealing blinds

stealing blinds is fun though!

[jyms]

I stopped stealing blinds

stealing blinds is fun though!

Actually, I've started again at $100NL, because of the difference in $$ and necessary Meta, as little as there is at $100NL. But when playing $10NL, $25NL or even $50NL, they are insignificant and just put you in tougher spots than necessary for the $$ involved. Since this is a beginner post, I tend to frown on blind stealing at lower levels in ring play. Since your trying to get 1.5BB's with a 4 BB or 5 BB raise, when guys will bet 30 BB's or 40 BB's on the river with TPNK, why bother.

[Rondavu]

The biggest light is a full comprehension of implied odds.

[Pelion]

Actually, I've started again at $100NL, because of the difference in $$ and necessary Meta, as little as there is at $100NL

That doesnt really make sense. 1BB is 1BB no matter what stakes youre at. At 100NL you should be stealing blinds more because people fold more (both when you have good hands and bad hands). The actually dollar amount shouldnt make a difference. The only difference is the players you are against at the different stakes tend to be different. If you are sat at a very loose passive 100NL table then blind stealing is just as silly as at a loose passive 2NL table.

[swiggidy]

this is why it's mostly a bad idea at low limits. They are loose passive (post flop, if they are loose passive pre and weak tight post then steal all day). The problem with stealing blinds is you end up in pots with weak holdings and are forced to make tougher decisions post flop. Blind stealing is a good, important tactic, but it is not a beginners tactic.

It only takes one bad call with TP (loosing 20bb say) to undo the blind stealing work of the last hour. You gain nothing in meta game by blind stealing.

[Xioustic]

Stealing blinds from calling stations does not work.

I do not steal blinds at Bodog at 10NL for this reason.

[jyms]

Actually, I've started again at $100NL, because of the difference in $$ and necessary Meta, as little as there is at $100NL

That doesn't really make sense. 1BB is 1BB no matter what stakes you're at. At 100NL you should be stealing blinds more because people fold more (both when you have good hands and bad hands). The actually dollar amount shouldn't make a difference. The only difference is the players you are against at the different stakes tend to be different. If you are sat at a very loose passive 100NL table then blind stealing is just as silly as at a loose passive 2NL table.

You are right in saying 1 BB is 1 BB, but you don't see the difference in the type of players your playing against. Using position and raising the blinds at $100NL has such a different effect on players at that level than raising T7s for $0.08 from the button in a $2NL game where players will call with any face card or suited cards and C/C to the river with TPNK.

[chardrian]

Ok time for a semi-real answer from me.

You always hear that poker is a "long-term" game, but believing that and understanding that is different than actually finally knowing it deepdown in your nether regions.

This journey to becoming a dominant player isn't about "a light turning on," it's about lots of different lights turning on and more importantly making sure that lights that have been turned on don't get turned off. It's also about realizing that the game is constantly changing and that in order to be a winning player you need to change with it, so you always need to be on the lookout for new lightswtiches to turn on.

For example, when I started on this site two years ago, some of the big "strategy" tips were to steal from the CO and button as often as you could in the mid to late stages of MTTs and to punish the "bubble". Now this is such common knowledge that the resteal from the blinds is the new big thing.

It is also important to analyze who you are as a person and as a poker player to move ahead. There are some players out there who just "get it" - they know the difference between spewage and great plays. The majority of us are NOT those players... and that's ok.

You need to know whether you are risk averse or a risk taker - both styles of play can work, but you want to choose different players to be against for them to work most effectively.

You need to know whether you are a hothead or an unemotional bot. When I am away from the table (such as in this forum) I am emotionally unattached from the game and I think I have a very good ability to analyze situations and plays. But when I am at the table I get attached to hands and situations, thus one of the "lightswitches" I always need to check on is tilt since I am more prone to it than others.

I think realizing that every person is going to have different "lights" is another "lightswitch" moment for me. The realization that I need to work on defending my button in cash games more than I need to work on defending my blinds may be a really important lightswitch for me and my style of play, but pretty unimportant for you and your style of play.

For me, I think my next light to help me become an even more profitable player will be learning how to get through downswings quicker than my opponents. I think my quickest way to a bigger bankroll is not about getting on a big win streak, instead it is about getting out of big downswings.

I realize this post is a little disjointed, but some "lights" have been turned on as I was writing it.

[Chopper]

one thing to say about blind stealing...

do it when you have a tight read on the players to your left. and dont do it just because you want to. do it because you actually have a marginal/speculative hand you dont mind having called. know when to cbet it (A-ragged flop) and when to dump it (coordination on flop). make sure you dont do this to necessarily increase your win-rate, but to loosen up the table. most of the players leftover today have PT w/ GT+ open on you, even this low. use the button and CO to increase your pfr so the multi-tabling nits see you as much more reckless than you are, and start calling your raises. this, if you have the right table, will increase the action at the table and loosen everyone up a bit so they are..

-outside their comfort zone
-and making your sc's and small pp's more profitable.

hope that makes sense.

[swiggidy]

do it when you have a tight read on the players to your left. and dont do it just because you want to. do it because you actually have a marginal/speculative hand you dont mind having called. know when to cbet it (A-ragged flop) and when to dump it (coordination on flop). make sure you dont do this to necessarily increase your win-rate, but to loosen up the table. most of the players leftover today have PT w/ GT+ open on you, even this low. use the button and CO to increase your pfr so the multi-tabling nits see you as much more reckless than you are, and start calling your raises. this, if you have the right table, will increase the action at the table and loosen everyone up a bit so they are..

I strongly disagree with this. If you're at a table with people running 45/0 do you think they actually have software to analyze other people's stats? Do you think they are even aware such software exists?

These same players don't give a fuck about your image. They only care about the cards in their hands. I've noticed myself running 3/0 over 50 hands. I raise from the CO and the BTN, BB and SB all call with AJo, A3s, and QTo. Are they doing this becaue they're putting me on KK+ with a solid chance to bust me if they flop good? No. They're doing it because they're cards are pretty. If anything I've noticed people tightening up when faced with my loose aggression. They're afraid to play weak hands cuz they'll just get blown out of the pot.

Stealing is primarily to increase your winrate, especially at the lower levels (at higher levels with villains capable of folding there are meta-game benefits). If you're playing 6max and you successfully steal the blinds once every 8 orbits that increases your winrate 1BB/100!!! If that means you go from 5BB -> 6BB that's a 20% increase!!! (I realize it's not actually that simple).

Summary: At low limits, raise from button if villains in the blinds are weak-tight post-flop. You win blinds and the call. If they're passive calling stations, limp your stealing hands from the button and steal post-flop.

[Chopper]

45/0 is NOT a tight player. i said a "tight" read. if you have a table that is only 16% to the flop...as a table...you have some rocks in there. if they are on your left, raise the hell out of them from the button and CO. rocks are <15% vpip, and preferrably passive <6% pfr, but not always. these are your multi-tablers, for the most part. not guys with 3-4 tables, but those with 8+. the set hunters.

if they are that selective pf, you need to steal their blinds, true, but not with 96o for the sake of stealing. you still need to be aware you may be called.

yes, you are right, if you come in raising and betting/3betting pre- or post flop, you will scare the table into submission. but, if you take your pfr #'s from 6% up to 12%, primarily in late position, you will loosen up the table, and get action on your premiums, pp's, etc. show them that you will steal w/ 33, or 78s, etc, and they WILL play you.

and, yes, they do have PT. sure, some dont, but a lot more do than a year ago. there just arent a ton of fish left after the US regs. fish are still there, especially at the lower limits, but not like it used to be. the ones that are still around, for sure, are the multi-rocks w/ GT+ that still hve a br leftover.

i used to have no problem finding 4 horrible players at almost any table i sat down to. now, i find a minimum of 4 tight players (i didnt say they were good, either), and maybe one loose passive, if i am lucky. players just are not spewing chips at the rate of '05.

swiggs, i respect your opinion, but 10 and 25 NL has changed lately...a good bit, too. 25 more so than 10 NL. you, if i remember live on the 50's (which have always been rocky, but it has to be more aggro now...like 100 used to be). come down here for 10k hands, and you'll see what i mean.

[swiggidy]

swiggs, i respect your opinion, but 10 and 25 NL has changed lately...a good bit, too. 25 more so than 10 NL. you, if i remember live on the 50's (which have always been rocky, but it has to be more aggro now...like 100 used to be). come down here for 10k hands, and you'll see what i mean.

I've been playing some 25NL recently. They are still bad, just not as spewy (i.e. calling down with A high or bottom pair). to living at 50NL.

The typical 50NL player still doesn't adjust his/her game to table conditions, so why should I expect 25NL/10NL players to? I will agree that you can get someone to play back a little more, but that doesn't mean you goad them into stacking off with TPWK, just that the medium pots are harder to win. When you say increase aggression I think 12%-20%, not 6%-12%. So slight difference of viewpoint.

I never really played 25NL at PS. The sites I played at had 1 tight player, 2 Taggish bad players, and 2 ATMs. Ahh, the good old days.

[donkbee]

The typical 50NL player still doesn't adjust his/her game to table conditions, so why should I expect 25NL/10NL players to?

just a quote for truth