Anyone ever fold here?

[Jager]

CO is Ldonnie he is about 23/18 over 2k hands and whom I generally have to battle with preflop, BTN is ==PAV== who runs 17/13, when we used to play 100 he rarely reraised preflop however he seems to be more active tonight.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($225)
BB ($315.70)
Hero ($338)
MP ($319.90)
CO ($225.45)
Button ($214.45)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, K.
Hero raises to $8, 1 fold, CO raises to $24, Button raises to $214.45, 2 folds, Hero ???

[ilikeaces86]

No.

[bode]

easy push.

[bigspenda73]

Thought 4bet pushes by decent players were mainly AK

[bbqsquirrel]

I say easy fold -- pushing all-in against a raise and a reraise by a tight player usually means a monster. And don't discount the chance that CO has Aces.

[andy-akb]

I say easy fold -- pushing all-in against a raise and a reraise by a tight player usually means a monster. And don't discount the chance that CO has Aces.

100BB deep KK is never an "easy" fold, Ive never folded it without 200bb+ effective stacks but its possible there are times to fold it with smaller stacks but again, its almost never "easy" [not trying to be nitpicky]. CO could have aces, but his range is going to be a looser than that even though we are UTG. The button could easily have AK or worse here, I really cant imagine folding this.

[ilikeaces86]

AK QQ are party of his range for sure.

[IowaSkinsFan]

Meh if Jager had the read on PAV that the guy is a complete nit this is an easy fold.

[Renton]

never fold KK pre at six max for 100bb

[mcatdog]

I'd consider laying this down against a really bad nit whom I had a lot of hands with. PAV is one of the few players that fits that description. That being said, he 4-bet me once with tens when he was on tilt.

[benny999]

ya that name sticks out for me...I think I remember playing ===PAV=== at micro stakes, and he was an ultra passive nut camper. for sure i'd fold if he's a nit. with no read i call though.

[Jager]

That was my read that Pav is a nit, but he has been seen 3betting alot this session, I really thought I should fold this but I thought 'I am not going to fold KK preflop'.


POKERSTARS GAME #8862787925: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2007/03/12 - 04:29:58 (ET)
Table 'Nephele V' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: resh15 ($225 in chips)
Seat 2: 8ivyleague8 ($315.70 in chips)
Seat 3: Jager244 ($338 in chips)
Seat 4: NY Spike NY ($319.90 in chips)
Seat 5: Ldonnie ($225.45 in chips)
Seat 6: ==PAV== ($214.45 in chips)
resh15: posts small blind $1
8ivyleague8: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Jager244 [Ks Kc]
Jager244: raises $6 to $8
NY Spike NY: folds
Ldonnie: raises $16 to $24
==PAV==: raises $190.45 to $214.45 and is all-in
resh15: folds
8ivyleague8: folds
Jager244: raises $123.55 to $338 and is all-in
Ldonnie: folds
*** FLOP *** [9h 3s 6c]
==PAV== said, "crap"
*** TURN *** [9h 3s 6c] [9s]
*** RIVER *** [9h 3s 6c 9s] [3d]
==PAV== said, "JJ"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Jager244: shows [Ks Kc] (two pair, Kings and Nines)
==PAV==: shows [Ad As] (two pair, Aces and Nines)
==PAV== collected $452.90 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $455.90 | Rake $3
Board [9h 3s 6c 9s 3d]
Seat 1: resh15 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: 8ivyleague8 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: Jager244 showed [Ks Kc] and lost with two pair, Kings and Nines
Seat 4: NY Spike NY folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Ldonnie folded before Flop
Seat 6: ==PAV== (button) showed [Ad As] and won ($452.90) with two pair, Aces and Nines

[Renton]

==PAV== said, "crap"

==PAV== said, "JJ"

what a cock

[zook]

what a cocksucker

fyp

[NLHE lahooozaher]

[quote="Renton"]

==PAV== said, "crap"

==PAV== said, "JJ"

For real?

[Numbr2intheWorld]

I've seen PAV at the 5k NL tables... he's absolutely retarded. And now i know he's a dick... thats cool.

anyways, i still have never folded KK pre in any game ever. KK is my most profitable hand right now. I think it's working out fine.

[IowaSkinsFan]

Jager raised UTG, Ldonnie, a very solid and tight player, reraised him. And then PAV, a nitty reg who can read a bit, pushes.
This is a Fold.

[Genitruc]

Move to BadBeat Forum?

[Numbr2intheWorld]

Jager raised UTG, Ldonnie, a very solid and tight player, reraised him. And then PAV, a nitty reg who can read a bit, pushes.
This is a Fold.

no.

[Warpe]

Move to BadBeat Forum?

it isn't a bad beat

[Jager]

This is the first hand where I actually thought about folding KK preflop, I was thinking the same as ISF here, except that me and Ldonnie go back and forth with the reraises so his 3bet wasn't too worrisome. Then it was just I am not folding KK...

[Ash256]

==PAV== said, "crap"

==PAV== said, "JJ"

[IowaSkinsFan]

Jager raised UTG, Ldonnie, a very solid and tight player, reraised him. And then PAV, a nitty reg who can read a bit, pushes.
This is a Fold.

no.

This is never AK or QQ. You need to be 50% against his range pretty much.

QQ+ I would think you're exactly 50% against. I think his range is heavily weighted towards KK+.

This is a fold, put yourself in PAV's position. Jager raises UTG, and Ldonnie reraises. Ldonnie is TAGG, Jager is decently frisky UTG, Do you ever push QQ or AK here?
I think PAV has the ability to use this reasoning.

AND just because someone is threebetting light, doesn't mean they are fourbetting light. And just because someone is threebetting a lot doesn't mean they aren't having a good rush of cards.

[sauce123]

lol

[IowaSkinsFan]

lol

I said my piece, if you don't want to agree with it you can at least explain why. I'm not sure there's any more on my side i can bring but i'd like to hear your P.O.V.

[sauce123]

we have KK.

[bigspenda73]

This can be QQ a TON. Hell, it could be a move with AK/JJ every once in a while if he has been watching you 2 go at it raising/3betting a lot.

[IowaSkinsFan]

we have KK.

So you think there's something wrong with my reasoning?

[elipsesjeff]

Pav's a dickhead. I call.

[sauce123]

KK>than everything but AA- there are 6 players at the table. Unless villain runs like 33/1 than I call, its just 100 BB deep I dont see a reason to be folding KK pre ever, people tilt, people overplay, dont muck the 2nd nuts. On a 55KT board im not mucking KK for fear of 55. If its nuts vs 2nd nuts then just pay off pretty much imo. i dont know y u wouldnt. Im a firm believer in 0th level thinking sometimes.

[benny999]

I think this spot is an exception to the "never fold KK pf for 100bb at 6max" rule. PAV is just too much of a nit...his range is too tight, pot odds not good enough, etc.
and sauce- it's different than post flop, since PAV cant combine his hand with the board pre flop (eg- his range could include 56s on the K 5 5 board), and it's different pot odds pre flop compared with what it would be post flop.

[DaNutsInYoEye]

At least 3 different people have called this guy a nit. I think you have to take the into consideration. Just because other people will do this with AK or QQ doesn't mean he will too. This also isn't 4-bet HU. There are two other people that have shown strength that he has to worry about if he has less than AA.

I'd probably call. I think such things need to be considered though instead of just always defaulting to "never fold KK PF with 100 BB stacks."

[sauce123]

I guess its different with me because I am arguably the lightest 3-bettor ever outside of maybe JKrantz at 400/600nl. therefore when I see KK in my hand the idea of folding doesnt even enter my head in the games I play.

that being said maybe if this guy is an uber-nit and his 4betting range is AA- and yea these probably do exist at those limits, then muck em I guess. And I've played with LDonnie and I wouldn't fold KK to him ever preflop so I guess this PAV guy has to be the nittiest nit in the world. Ugh.