sick spots.. in big pots

[griffey24]

This was a nice 200NL welcoming for me, with a couple of sick hands right off the bat!

Hand 1:

-villain in this hand is overall solid, 19/11/1
-I wise person on this site recently said about 200NL:

A lot of times you shouldn't fold getting 2 to 1 even if you can only beat a bluff. Inducing bluffs was very, very profitable for me at 1/2.

should I listen in this hand!?

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $105.11
Hero: $205.25
CO: $270
Button: $197
SB: $172.38
BB: $59

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with
UTG folds, Hero raises to $8, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: ($25, 3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $19, Button calls, BB folds.

Turn: ($63, 2 players)
Hero bets $49, Button calls.

River: ($161, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button is all-in $121, Hero??

Hand 2:

-BB in this hand is same villain from hand 1. I am pretty sure he's out to get me, cause imade a big flop call on another table and hit a miracle turn card and ended up stacking him. He's been mouthing off ever since
-no reads on UTG+1, 51/13/.8 over 55 hands
-not the biggest turn bet, but I'm kinda stuck in a bad spot here. Had no idea what to do

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $116.13
UTG+1: $57.25
CO: $197
Hero: $226.50
SB: $284
BB: $495.11

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, Hero raises to $6, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: ($31, 5 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $16, 2 folds, Hero raises to $37, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: ($142, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG is all-in $73.13, Hero ??

[Phantaroth]

#2 - I don't see how you could ever ever fold this.

# 1 - I dunno right now and i have to go to class, I'd call and lose to queens peronsallly .

[DaNutsInYoEye]

Hand 1.

Close, I'd probably fold though. The board is just so dry. I doubt he is calling your flop bet with a drawing hand. Even if he was the biggest draw got there on the turn. Unless he is a moron I think he has to give your credit for at least a pair of Q's when you bet the turn like that. I really think he has a pair of Q's or is slow playing. The river is a good bluff card but I don't think he is given the prior action.

Hand 2.

You need to be raising more PF with so many limpers. With so many people seeing the flop on such a draw heavy board I'd also pot it after UTG leads into you. As played, I'd push. I don't necessarily give UTG credit for having a flush. Who knows what the hell BB has and it him still in the hand certainly complicates things. He's a lot more worrisome than UTG's push. Pushing is better than calling because if you just call and BB pushes you're going to call anyways because of the pots odds. If he has something like two pair or 5,xd though you want to be making it as expensive as possible for him to play.

[griffey24]

Hand 2.

You need to be raising more PF with so many limpers. With so many people seeing the flop on such a draw heavy board I'd also pot it after UTG leads into you.

Its funny cause I intentionally raised it smaller than I normally do, since I wanted it to go multi-way. It was pretty much a juicer raise, and if I miss I'm done with the hand. I figured its not so bad playing a set multi-way, in position.

I agree, I should have raised it harder on the flop though, for sure.

[Genitruc]

haha very nice sick spots.

1 thing to remember when reading Sauce's posts is that he plays on Stars. In my experience, Stars low and midstakes are a million times more aggressive than the loose-fishy Euro sites. Ppl tend to play much more passively on sites like Prima and Crypto.

To be honest, I think both hands are coin-flipping situations ; there are strong reasons to call both hands but you're obviously beat a whole lot in both cases.

In hand 1 it sounds like you and villain have history. It would help to know what the dynamic was at the time of this 1st hand, esp how villain views you.

His line looks more like a bluff-catching line (with a hand like 99-1010) than a strong Q so I feel very tempted to call since he may see that you're scared of the Q and try to shove to take you off a slightly better medium strength hand or slightly worse (88 type hand) if he think s you're aggro enough to 2 barell with an underpair. Folding is fine though.

Hand 2 is a much easier call imo since this type of villain who limp-calls UTG could be on suited cards (we have outs) but he can also be overvaluing and Ax with a straight draw or simply Ax that made 2 pair.

Since we're crushing that part of his range and we have equity when behind I like a call in hand 2.

[griffey24]

haha very nice sick spots.
In hand 1 it sounds like you and villain have history. It would help to know what the dynamic was at the time of this 1st hand, esp how villain views you.
[

Yah, we didn't start playing at each other until a little while after this hand. So at this point he probably has no real reason to think i'm getting too out of line. Not sure if it changes anything, but while he only raises 11%, he seems to 3-bet quite often PF, and would definitely re-pop a high pair 1010+ or JJ+.

Hand 2 is a much easier call imo since this type of villain who limp-calls UTG could be on suited cards (we have outs) but he can also be overvaluing and Ax with a straight draw or simply Ax that made 2 pair.

Since we're crushing that part of his range and we have equity when behind I like a call in hand 2.

So we flat call here, even though BB is yet to act behind us? I did in fact end up flat calling, because I figured if BB had a better hand than me, he would call anyhow. A call might keep him around with hands that are worse than mine or even induce a push.

So we're definitely NEVER folding here, even being stuck between BB? Its just a question of call or push?

[andy-akb]

1. The range of a 19/11 for calling your PFR is probably going to be something like broadways and pps and maybe some random connectors a small percentage of the time. On the flop you are probably getting called by broadways that have a queen and a decent amount of PPs and are most likely getting raised by sets but I guess there is a small possibility that they could still have one. On the turn, getting your 2nd bet called narrows their range primarily to those broadways with a queen. If they had a set and didnt raise the flop, I would imagine theyd be raising here but the board is fairly draw so thats a possibility. They arent calling a 2nd bet with something like 66 or 88 [or lower] and even something like JJ is unlikely but it is a possibility. On the river when they bet I would say this is going to be a queen a huge percentage of the time because nothing would make sense for them to get there as a bluff. If they somehow made it that far with TT, they arent shoving for value if they are solid and even if they arent they most likely wouldnt be doing that. I think this is a standard fold as I just dont think a player who is 19/11 is going to be nearly ever making it that far on just a bluff.

2. Your raise sizes are pretty bad here. PF thats a tiny raise even when opening [but not always bad], with 3 in before you, I think you need to be making this much bigger. On the flop, you definitely need to be making a much bigger raise especially in a multiway pot with that wet of a board, thats probably the biggest mistake. UTG could have a ton of stuff here, but the BB cold calling a flop raise is pretty suspicious. Do you really think theyd do that with a draw? This spot does suck a lot but I think folding is gross and would probably just shove and hope to suckout or to somehow be ahead. How bad is this thinking?

[Genitruc]

btw my reply for hand 2 is pure shit

I didn't factor in BB yet to act behind us!

[gabe]

nothing is wrong with the tiny raise pre

[Genitruc]

The more I think of it the more I think that your turn action doesn't matter usually.

The only time it matters is if you think BB is capable of folding a low-mid flush (something like 8d9d or Jd9d) if you push AND that the donk's range includes lots of non-flush hands. Since most villains aren't good/bad enough to fold flushes...

If you think BB is only calling a push with a flush but that the donk is likely to have a flush then you actually WANT bb to call to give you juicier odds to fill up.

It just doesn't make sense for BB to have a K or Q of diamonds that you want to protect against. Even if he did, letting him call 75$ getting 4-1 when he's anywhere from 5-1 to 6.5-1 (depending on UTG having a flush or not) is fine by me.

Assuming we put no more money in the pot when a diamond hits the river this "priced-in" call by BB actually compensates for some of the times that UTG has a flush.

But since it's so unlikely for BB to have a bare K or Q of diamonds, I don't really think it matters.

Sick sick spot.

[griffey24]

2. Your raise sizes are pretty bad here. PF thats a tiny raise even when opening [but not always bad], with 3 in before you, I think you need to be making this much bigger. On the flop, you definitely need to be making a much bigger raise especially in a multiway pot with that wet of a board, thats probably the biggest mistake.

Andy- whats the motivation for raising more preflop? Do you think I should be raising more pre-flop to isolate, or with the hope that I get a lot of callers all calling a bigger raise?

My goal for the raise here was to build up the pot (regardless of how many callers), I just wanted to get the biggest pot possible on the flop, and hope I hit a set. I thought the best way to do this was to make a smaller raise that most of the limpers/blinds would call.

But since it's so unlikely for BB to have a bare K or Q of diamonds, I don't really think it matters.
Sick sick spot.

Yah I thought about this too. The only problem to flat calling would be if they had a lone high diamond. But I REALLY can't see a hand that would call that flop, with a lone high diamond. Unless there is some crazy slow play of KK, QQ. BUT I know villain here would have re-raised HUUGE from the blinds with any high pair, so thats not in his range.

I am pretty sure that since I had _just_ busted/sucked out on him, his range cold calling the flop is severely to bust me, and he was for sure behind on the flop. He could definitely have a flush, or be on some straight draw.

I agree with Andy though, my flop raise is waaaay too small. I probably should have pumped that a lot harder ($45-50ish?), and the rest of the hand would have played out a lot simpler.

[mixchange]

I fold hand #1, I think he has a queen but has something like KQ and is not quite sure of his kicker enough to raise back at you. When the last queen hits he decides you never had one and pushes, hoping you have AA or KK.

I think all you beat here is a bluff considering how dry the board is and I don't see this as a bluff.

Hand #2 I call even though it's highly likely villain has a flush considering 5 players saw the flop. 1/2 pot bet is not enough to fold here. This is also often AQ thinking "yahtzee" but I think we're beat and we grudgingly call with some outs.

[griffey24]

Thanks for the help so far guys. General consensus seems to be "you cooould call, but I would find a fold" in hand 1, which I agree with. Personally I think this should have been an easier fold than I made it.

I called and got OWNED by 33??? yikes... I think he played this pretty poorly but whatever. I guess it wasn't that bad, if he stacked me anyhow.

Hand 2 - I flat called the turn, and BB pushed and I called obviously. Pot odds at that point.

UTG+1 had a king high flush Kd5d
BB had a Q high flush: QdJd (I knew he was huge fishing to stack me, sadly.. it worked. Though UTG+1 took a big chunk of his would-be winnings)

and there is no happy board pairing ending.

[mixchange]

Hand #1: Did you think villain was just bluffing? Cuz you don't beat anything that would otherwise bet that size.

Hand #2: that is the expected result but priced in at that point... I might consider folding just because 5 players saw the flop.

[Miffed22001]

opps line in 1 is very nice, he must just hate the queen if he knows what you have

[andy-akb]

2. Your raise sizes are pretty bad here. PF thats a tiny raise even when opening [but not always bad], with 3 in before you, I think you need to be making this much bigger. On the flop, you definitely need to be making a much bigger raise especially in a multiway pot with that wet of a board, thats probably the biggest mistake.

Andy- whats the motivation for raising more preflop? Do you think I should be raising more pre-flop to isolate, or with the hope that I get a lot of callers all calling a bigger raise?

My goal for the raise here was to build up the pot (regardless of how many callers), I just wanted to get the biggest pot possible on the flop, and hope I hit a set. I thought the best way to do this was to make a smaller raise that most of the limpers/blinds would call.

I cant say I 100% think the preflop raise size is horrible and should have probably explained a little better. This raise is bad if you are only doing this with a hand like you had and also if you are doing this 100% of the time with this sort of hand. OOP I have been making my raises a standard size but in position I have been working on varying my raise size based on what I want to achieve with the hand but randomizing it enough that you cant really pick anything up on it. If this is part of a bigger game plan, thats good. If it isnt, you need to rethink either that bigger game plan or the raise sizing of this hand. Out of personal preference I dont think I would raise _this_ small though simply because I think we can achieve the same thing but raise slightly more and get more money in. Now, Im not saying it would be much bigger, but Id probably raise to around $8 if I were making a smaller raise.

[Galapogos]

I would play a set exactly like villian did in Hand #1 in position. I don't see guys this solid generally call you down wih TPTK or a lesser PP. I think you're smoked.

In Hand #2 I fold unless I'm sure BB will call behind and pay off on the river. UTG is such a flush line.

[benny999]

ya, it'd be bad if someone picks up that u only raise small with hands like SC and low PP.
but if nobody notices, or u can balance it, it seems like a good idea.

[sauce123]

Hand 1: Board is waaaaaaaaay too dry for you to call here against a typical opponent let alone a nit. Against a donk I would stack-a-donk the turn, but against most typical opponents your line is fine providing you find a fold on the river. Also his nitty preflop stats usually indicate nitty postflop play- so he has QJ+ here just about always. I think your ideas in this hand may have been skewed by the OMG I have aces mentality when on the river AA=AK. 19/11s dont turn 99 TT JJ into bluffs when checked to on the river. Ever.

Hand2- Your flop raise is really, really bad. Id make it 80 or 90 usually, which lets you fold the turn approx. never and also makes it a mistake for ur opponents to call with any conceivable draw. They probably shove 2pair as a big pairs is most of ur range here which you crush. Not to mention typical donk shoves of combo draws, 88-JJ, and worse.
As played... its a sick, sick spot. The problem is that if you cold call the shove ur range is KdAx, KdKx maybe and a set. Ugh. I probably puke and call as I give shorstacks no credit and you got mad outzzz.

[Genitruc]

I think AA is considerably better than AK in hand 1 unless villain is a complete robot/idiot.

[griffey24]

Hand2- Your flop raise is really, really bad. Id make it 80 or 90 usually, which lets you fold the turn approx. never and also makes it a mistake for ur opponents to call with any conceivable draw.

Am I the only one that thinks bumping this to 80 or 90 is waaaay too huge? Maybe my whole raises sizes are messed, and should look into making bigger raises more often in general. But the idea of raising here to more than even 55 never even crossed my mind, let alone 80 or 90!

If you had AA here instead of a set, would you still be raising here up to 80 or 90? (assuming you'd raise here)

[Genitruc]

I think sauce is right about the flop raise.

When someone leads into you on this board usually they don't want to fold. We have a great hand so let's get as much money in now as we can.

I'd make it at least 60ish.

[sauce123]

Genitruc- actually i was gonna say AA about equal to 88 in hand 1 but i figured AK would be more dramatic. The point im trying to get across is that we lose to any hand he his betting for value and the board seems too dry to me and the action too weird for me to make a hero call. without a lot of history at least.

[Genitruc]

Genitruc- actually i was gonna say AA about equal to 88 in hand 1 but i figured AK would be more dramatic. The point im trying to get across is that we lose to any hand he his betting for value and the board seems too dry to me and the action too weird for me to make a hero call. without a lot of history at least.

I hear ya Sauce

If there were some sick history I think the difference becomes huge between a "bluff-catching hand" like AK and 88, JJ, AA etc.

Your advice is spot on though without big reads vs a "standardish" player imo.

Smart players could be pushing with hands like 99-JJ here putting villain on a similar range and figuring he folds all similar hands (just in case he were 1 PP lower or something) and takes a crack at folding out AA/KK.

But that's prob more advanced thinking than we typically see at these stakes.

[Genitruc]

I was thinking about something like this. Not quite the same situation since there are 2 overcards rather than 1 but the idea is the same.

- Dustinz sitting in seat 2 with $87.50
- Brubaker sitting in seat 3 with $198.00
- lucass19 sitting in seat 5 with $163.30
- Genitruc sitting in seat 6 with $199.00 [Dealer]

Dustinz posted the small blind - $1.00
Brubaker posted the big blind - $2.00

** Dealing card to Genitruc: ,

lucass19 raised - $8.00
Genitruc raised - $28.00
Dustinz folded
Brubaker folded
lucass19 called - $28.00

** Dealing the flop:

lucass19 checked
Genitruc bet - $41.00
lucass19 called - $41.00

** Dealing the turn:

lucass19 checked
Genitruc checked

** Dealing the river:

lucass19 checked
Genitruc went all-in - $130.00
lucass : ugh.
lucass : jj
lucass19 folded
Genitruc mucks:
Genitruc wins $269.00 from the main pot

[griffey24]

Genitruc - nh, well played.

Though I think one big difference to that hand is that you re-raised PF, so he is putting you on AK/AQ,AA,KK,QQ, pretty much all hands that have him beat on this board.

I think a better comparison would have been if the river was a King. Its one of those things where if you see the second card come out, its even less likely that villain is holding one of those in his hand. In that case, he might think his jacks are good.

[Genitruc]

Genitruc - nh, well played.

Though I think one big difference to that hand is that you re-raised PF, so he is putting you on AK/AQ,AA,KK,QQ, pretty much all hands that have him beat on this board.

I think a better comparison would have been if the river was a King. Its one of those things where if you see the second card come out, its even less likely that villain is holding one of those in his hand. In that case, he might think his jacks are good.

yeah I though about faking it and pairing the board on river so that it would be a closer parallel (btw obv don't mean to hijack and be like ZOMG I BLUFFED SOMEONE EAT IT...)

But I posted it as an example of a hand where I put villain on a similar hand to mine and felt that shoving would obviously fold out the worse ones but could also fold out the better ones.

If we imagine that villain has AA (unlikely line admittedly), JJ or 99/88/etc descending on the river of the hand where I posted (and never checks with a set) then I think the situation is very similar to your hand.

A better parallel would've been if I'd been the one with JJ in the hand I posted, the board pair K's on the river and I had shoved w JJ, hoping to fold out QQ and AA once in a blue moon.

[griffey24]

Genitruc - hah no worries, its no hijack. I can see where you're getting at here, in that there might be some room to call sometimes (given that the right villain may bluff here)

I am accepting that I made a brutal river call however, and am wondering if there is a better line to take in my AA hand? Check the turn? or it was played fine, just fold the damn river?

[Genitruc]

Genitruc - hah no worries, its no hijack. I can see where you're getting at here, in that there might be some room to call sometimes (given that the right villain may bluff here)

I am accepting that I made a brutal river call however, and am wondering if there is a better line to take in my AA hand? Check the turn? or it was played fine, just fold the damn river?

I actually like leading the river tbh

After you do this you almost NEVER get bluffed and can get called by worse if they think you're FOS.