4bet pot, flop push

[Irisheyes]

We've been going at it a good bit recently here. Whole table is aggro preflop. I take this 4bet line a good amount with AK/AA/KK/QQ when I suspect someone is reraising light. This ok?


***** Hand History for Game 5895816448 *****
$ 400 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Saturday, April 21, 00:41:07 ET 2007
Table Table 127929 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: GoooDlIkE ( $ 1,472.50 USD )
Seat 3: luongoisgoot ( $ 1,450.86 USD )
Seat 4: thebear48 ( $ 518.70 USD )
Seat 6: doyle_777 ( $ 392 USD )
Seat 1: Hero ( $ 489 USD )
Seat 5: don_perignon ( $ 388 USD )
don_perignon posts small blind [$ 2 USD].
doyle_777 posts big blind [$ 4 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Qs Qc ]
Hero raises [$ 16 USD]
GoooDlIkE calls [$ 16 USD]
luongoisgoot raises [$ 70 USD]
thebear48 folds
don_perignon folds
doyle_777 folds
Hero raises to $160 USD]
GoooDlIkE folds
luongoisgoot calls [$ 90 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2h, Jc, Ad ]
Hero is all-In [$ 329 USD]

[Numbr2intheWorld]

This is a 4-bet? And for some reason on the flop it says your actual screen name and not "hero."

Now on to actual hand analysis:

I usually 4-bet push here, it looks the most bluffy. I get calls from AQ and JJ by guys like this all the time when i do. Small 4-bets just look like pure value (although that wasn't the case here).

I think the flop push is a must even though you aren't beating anything... half of his probable range is KK and QQ which are both folding.

[Irisheyes]

Oops yep edited thanks.

The thing about 4betting pf is it's a trade off between trying to look like a bluff when you have AA and trying to look like a monster when you have AK.

[benny999]

there's no way he'd call your 4-bet lightly, like AK or even worse?
if his pf range is KK/AA then I definitely like making your hand a bluff.
I think it's spewy though if his range is JJ+/AK, or if it includes a ton of hands he'd bluff the flop with.

[Alexos]

there's no way he'd call your 4-bet lightly, like AK or even worse?
if his pf range is KK/AA then I definitely like making your hand a bluff.
I think it's spewy though if his range is JJ+/AK, or if it includes a ton of hands he'd bluff the flop with.

I agree with Benny, I dont think this is very standard/good especially since the table has been aggro pf. How can we be good, pushing this kind of flop if his range is AQs+,AK,JJ+??

On the other hand if we let him bet so he "bluffs" the flop, we wont feel great about our hand either and will have to pitch it most of the time anyways.

I usually (never) dont shove QQ here because I feel it connects too much with a tags range. Should I?

[phantom_lord]

isn't ax like a huge part of his range?

i ususually just check here.

[Irisheyes]

Don't you guys think he push or folds AK preflop?

[phantom_lord]

yeah, usually. what do u expect him to have? qq-kk?

[Irisheyes]

I'm just hoping I can fold KK really.

[n3wbs]

We've been going at it a good bit recently here. Whole table is aggro preflop. I take this 4bet line a good amount with AK/AA/KK/QQ when I suspect someone is reraising light. This ok?

Your 4-bet range: AK/AA/KK/QQ

If he is calling you light then let's say his range is:

AQs/AK-JJ+

Does villain think you would 4-bet OOP with AK?
Does villain think your capable of pushing for around pot with AAA?

Also don't you think villain is pushing KK pre here with much money in the pot? I don't think you are a deep enough for KK to be getting tricky/cautious.. but i dont know villain.

[Miffed22001]

lets just hope he folds KK/QQ coz hes not folding an ace.

[aislephive]

I don't think he ever has AK here if he is good, so I think the flop shove is ok.

[Irisheyes]

I don't think he ever has AK here if he is good, so I think the flop shove is ok.

You got any thoughts on preflop? What am I accomplishing with the 4bet?

[n3wbs]

I don't think he ever has AK here if he is good, so I think the flop shove is ok.

Why not AK? Its one of the most overplayed hands in poker at small to mid stakes, even high stakes.

So you are basically saying JJ/AA/KK, two of which he auto calls. Do you not think KK is shoved all-in preflop? I don't see any advantage with calling KK here, i see disadvantages.

[Numbr2intheWorld]

You got any thoughts on preflop? What am I accomplishing with the 4bet?

Putting money in with a hand that has good preflop value but not as good postflop value. It also helps define the villain's range.

[IowaSkinsFan]

You got any thoughts on preflop? What am I accomplishing with the 4bet?

Shouldn't you know this before you do it?

I personally just shove pre, raising anything less just makes it awkward.

[Irisheyes]

I don't think he ever has AK here if he is good, so I think the flop shove is ok.

Why not AK? Its one of the most overplayed hands in poker at small to mid stakes, even high stakes.

So you are basically saying JJ/AA/KK, two of which he auto calls. Do you not think KK is shoved all-in preflop? I don't see any advantage with calling KK here, i see disadvantages.

But you don't see disadvantages with just calling with AK? What if he calls as misses the flop? What we're saying is that we're assuming that he shoves or folds AK preflop.

yeah KK gets shoved pf a lot too. I think he has to fold KK on the flop though.

[n3wbs]

I don't think he ever has AK here if he is good, so I think the flop shove is ok.

Why not AK? Its one of the most overplayed hands in poker at small to mid stakes, even high stakes.

So you are basically saying JJ/AA/KK, two of which he auto calls. Do you not think KK is shoved all-in preflop? I don't see any advantage with calling KK here, i see disadvantages.

But you don't see disadvantages with just calling with AK? What if he calls as misses the flop? What we're saying is that we're assuming that he shoves or folds AK preflop.

yeah KK gets shoved pf a lot too. I think he has to fold KK on the flop though.

I never insinuated that I saw any advantages to called AK pre flop? I would of quite willingly fold AK to 4-bet pressure here.

I just think crossing it out the picture is silly.

You said villain was 3-betting light in aggro game, then once discussion began we were tightening his range to that off KK, which obviously would be conveinient on AJx flop.

I don't totally hate the line you took, but personally I find better spots to "gamble" in. Im presuming you are a good player, as i like reading your posts... however im sure you can find better small edges to push.

[sauce123]

Irish- I think AA is by far his most likely hand here...

that being said, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, 99, 88 and to a lesser extent AK AQ are going to make up the rest of his range.

I dont think your overbet accomplishes much as KK folds to any bet imo as an ace hits basically your entire range but QQ. However, I think a bet is better than check/fold as so many aces are 5bet shoving preflop and you dont want to allow yourself to get bluffed by smaller PPs. So bet/fold or C/F seem pretty similar depending on villain...

[Numbr2intheWorld]

So bet/fold or C/F seem pretty similar depending on villain...

Bet/fold? Are you saying we should make a small bet (160 dollar or something) and fold to a raise?

[Irisheyes]

The flop bet is only $15 or so bigger then pot. I have same question as Massimo ^^^

[aislephive]

I don't think he ever has AK here if he is good, so I think the flop shove is ok.

Why not AK? Its one of the most overplayed hands in poker at small to mid stakes, even high stakes.

So you are basically saying JJ/AA/KK, two of which he auto calls. Do you not think KK is shoved all-in preflop? I don't see any advantage with calling KK here, i see disadvantages.

AK is unlikely, most people are going to either fold or shove preflop, as they are going to miss the flop most of the time and they're committing a lot of chips preflop, if they think they're ahead they should just shove. Very rarely will a good player have AK with this action. People do however, cold call 4 bets with AA/KK a fair amount in my experience, QQ/JJ also quite a bit because they want to see a non A/K flop before committing (whether or not that's correct is debatable, but it's a line I see from time to time).

Irisheyes I really do not like the preflop 4 bet to be honest. You raised UTG 6 handed, there is a cold caller UTG+1, and CO 3 bets big. Even with history, your line is very strong and I would expect him to have a tight reraising range given a solid tightish player raises UTG. If I'm villain I'm smooth calling with JJ/TT the majority of the time here, and sometimes even AK, and usually folding AQ unless utg is loose or my AQ is sooooted. If I did happen to 3 bet TT/JJ/AK, I would pretty much instafold to your 4 bet, even if we have been tangling. I just have no reason to think you're making a move. Both of our ranges should be pretty narrow with this action. Now if it's a button raise and he 3bets in the blinds, I like 4 betting way more. Or any other standard resteal spot like a CO raise and the button 3 bets us. I'm not a huge fan of it generally though with QQ unless I'm really sure he is going to be felting worse on a regular basis. Only you can be the judge of that.

[Irisheyes]

Yeah your probably right. I'm thinking QQ is kinda just weak enough to let me get into tricky spots, but yet not so weak that it's easily dumpable. I don't think I'll be 4betting it much anymore.

With regards to what you say about reraising preflop, wow you're a nit.

[n3wbs]

I don't think he ever has AK here if he is good, so I think the flop shove is ok.

Why not AK? Its one of the most overplayed hands in poker at small to mid stakes, even high stakes.

So you are basically saying JJ/AA/KK, two of which he auto calls. Do you not think KK is shoved all-in preflop? I don't see any advantage with calling KK here, i see disadvantages.

AK is unlikely, most people are going to either fold or shove preflop, as they are going to miss the flop most of the time and they're committing a lot of chips preflop, if they think they're ahead they should just shove. Very rarely will a good player have AK with this action. People do however, cold call 4 bets with AA/KK a fair amount in my experience, QQ/JJ also quite a bit because they want to see a non A/K flop before committing (whether or not that's correct is debatable, but it's a line I see from time to time).

I think the above is based too much on the villain being a good player.

I see a lot of bad players making over calls with AK on a good basis.

I do agree however AK pushes or folds in the hands of a better player.

[sauce123]

bet/fold is better than shove because half pot still folds out all of the hands we dont want bluffing/calling us (KK etc) and if villain shoves we know for a fact that we are drawing to between 0 and 2 outs, so why not just save 100 bucks or so in ev.

[Irisheyes]

sauce would you mind telling me what you think of preflop?

[Irisheyes]

Also yeah you're right about the flop.

[aislephive]

Yeah your probably right. I'm thinking QQ is kinda just weak enough to let me get into tricky spots, but yet not so weak that it's easily dumpable. I don't think I'll be 4betting it much anymore.

With regards to what you say about reraising preflop, wow you're a nit.

Why? I think JJ/TT has way more value just calling than 3 betting in this particular spot. AK I would 3 bet 90% of the time, though. But TT/JJ are extremely borderline. I mean you're going to be (or at least should be) folding 99 and below to his 3 bet. So tell me what is the value of 3 betting TT-JJ there? You're going to fold out everything you beat most of the time (unless you have reason to believe otherwise, which you normally won't) preflop and every time we're called or 4 bet we have to be extremely cautious and can't take much heat at all. Plus when we just flat call preflop with position we can make better and more optimal decisions, IMO.

[sauce123]

I think the problem with preflop is that 160 is kind of an awkward number as we have seen from the flop action. My default play is to call here, but depending on metagame (you say you guys have been going at it so i assume a ton of 3betting in position etc), I think in this specific situation with QQ OOP against an aggressive opponent who might think you are making a move, I dont mind just sticking it in preflop, but only if you expect to get called by AQ+ TT+ or worse...

this isnt usually the case, so I think a call is optimal usually.