Is it ever right to give a free card

[Seasider]

Sorry I have somehow managed to break my PT, thats another story.

I was playing on Crypto last night and this hand came up. Villan was playing very tight and 'standard' I guess at 4 of my tables of 25NL. Nothing out of the ordinary but no stats, as I said my PT is busto.

Anyway the action limps round to me in the small blind with sorry I cant remember suits. Everyone folds but opp who was on the button. 2 see the flop.

Flop comes something like and I am first to go. I CHECK giving villan the free card.

As I said he was playing very tight and folding a lot post flop here was my thinking - Either he has a weaker ace that will bet to protect the flush I can then raise - He may have small pockets that have missed and will take a stab but shut down quickly when called or the flush hits - He might have the flush draw in which case I have to be cautious when the draw hits or which he may bet and I can call/raise depending on sizing.

I had also not been out of line at any showdowns so given that he was some sort of thinking player and ~hopefully~ he had the same idea about me over 4 tables. The flop check goes a long way to ruling out the Ace in his mind. As the golden rule is not to give free cards!

Basically I am taking a gamble that the flush misses 2/3 times in order to get extra bets.

He checked through.

The turn blanked and I led for the pot ~2 that he called and I checked to him on the turn and called his ~$4 bet pretty quickly.

If I won I got $6 from lots of hands that he was folding to a flop lead.

Is my thinking OK or criminally flawed? I am ready to dump the hand like a cheap suit if the flush hits.

[Ash256]

I don't mind it too much as long as you're able to fold easily, but I think it's much much better if you have the ace of hearts (I know you can't remember suits but I think you'd likely remember the Ah if you had it)... Why didn't you raise pre?

"Basically I am taking a gamble that the flush misses 2/3 times in order to get extra bets. "

But if you think he's got the flush draw you can just bet anyway, and if the flush hits and he doesn't have it, you're not getting any money out of him.


Anyway, fuck knows what the conclusion is, I hope this rambling makes some kinda sense though.

[Seasider]

oops I did riase per obv, just took it so for granted I assumed it!

I think the only way this guy has the flush draw is suited connectors, a larger part of his range is pockets big aces, which could easily be suited I guess.

[|~|ypermegachi]

giving free cards are usually only for pot control. you have a vulnerable hand, and most drawing hands are calling anyways, so you don't want to bloat the pot. it works well if your opponents tend to keep bets in range of the pot. since this is NL, if they overbet anyways, this tactic will not work as well, so it's pretty opponent dependent.

depending on the villain, checking this board can be fine.

[flyingPenguin]

Giving a free card can be OK, but I don't think it is in this hand. I would check here if opponent was likely to play aggressively against your apparent weakness, but usually not.

A better way to deal with a really weak/tight opponent who folds a lot of flops is to raise more non-ace hands and c-bet often. If the player is thinking then he'll have to know that just because you've bet does not mean you have an A. If you are doing this a lot against him then he is making a mistake to not call or raise with some second pair hands. If he starts calling flop bets with second pair hands, you can tighten up or start second barrelling him.

Giving the free card with a vulnerable hand is one of those things where you risk losing a lot of money and, particularly against a weak player, don't stand to win much.

[Seasider]

I see your point penguin and would have agreed with it for a long time.

However this was in part a mix it up play against a player I will probably be playing a lot of hands with over the next bonus. My standard play would be to bet out and if the flush had hit I would have been in trouble.

For what it's worth I won the hand. I did not see his cards as Sun poker is helpfully crashing every time I open the hand history tab. I assume it was JJ or something.

[Numbr2intheWorld]

First of all, it's usually better to not get tricky OOP.

Secondly, how often do you continuation bet flops. HU i pretty much continuation bet everytime, so for me to not bet this flop, would be criminal, no matter who the opponent is. With you this may not be the case which would change things a bit...

Lastly, this board is kinda drawish. You have much more value betting on the flop and turn then you do on the turn and river. You're also, like you said, letting him improve. Just play this normally.

[IowaSkinsFan]

The only time you'd check for the reason of giving a free card is when if your opponent hit a free card they'd stack off more easily to your better hand. Here you have one pair so any hit free card would make opponent have the better hand.

And also dont get tricky oop i like massimo's reasoning.

[Galapogos]

giving free cards are usually only for pot control. you have a vulnerable hand, and most drawing hands are calling anyways, so you don't want to bloat the pot.

You want to bet to charge him for his draw because most of the time he won't improve vs your hand. To just check initially because you fear a bet won't make him fold a draw is so very wrong. If that's why you wanted to check, I'm not too clear on what you meant.

[mixchange]

I think:

- we always bet unless it's unlikely draw/rainbow, even then I want a strong hand like 2p
- he free card is often to get the nuts paid, e.g. quads or FH or flopped Ace high flush
- |~|ypermegachi answered more broadly and is referring to pot control in Turn situations where a scare card is likely to have helped villain, so we check looking to c/c river. I don't think he meant on this particular hand -- there's nothing to do but *take* control here. We just get used to taking small TPTK pots down, avoid ROI, and extract money from chasers.

[Seasider]

giving free cards are usually only for pot control. you have a vulnerable hand, and most drawing hands are calling anyways, so you don't want to bloat the pot.

You want to bet to charge him for his draw because most of the time he won't improve vs your hand. To just check initially because you fear a bet won't make him fold a draw is so very wrong. If that's why you wanted to check, I'm not too clear on what you meant.

No my point was I know he will probably fold a flush draw to a bet; but also he will himself bet lots of hands that I beat to protect them from the draw.

Also because he expects me to bet an ace he will be more convinced his is good if that is what he has.

[Galapogos]

My post was directed more towards Hyper's reasoning for not betting.

I would still just bet out and be happy this guy is folding to all of my c-bets instead of trying to get fancy in your hand though.

[pgil]

especially a bad idea if you think he is holding some kind of weak A or 2nd pair type of hand, because it will be hard to evaluate the turn. You don't know what will pair his second card and since you are oop this can be very expensive.

I think it would be much better to make this balancing play if you were on the button, as then you can more easily control the turn and river, making it easier to get to showdown for the right price.

You said he is folding flush draws to a lead here. if that is the case you should be abusing this guy. I don't think I've ever seen someone at 25 NL fold a flush draw on a flop HU though. Unless you are overbetting the pot by a significant amount this seems unlikely. and if he is, then this is a pretty big mistake on his part that is easily exploitable.