ackward preflop situation with JJ

[|~|ypermegachi]

CO is nitty reg about 22/17. button is super lagtard 33/26.

Prima Poker skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $20.95
CO: $124.50
Button: $134.15
Hero: $109.25
BB: $61.75

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with J J
UTG calls, CO raises to $4, Button raises to $14, ...

[ChrisTheFish]

I'd call, and fold if CO re pops it.

[Pelion]

I'd call, and fold if CO re pops it.

plan?

[Ash256]

Hmn, what about $34, planning on folding to CO if he pushes, and calling/folding to LAGtard depending on whether he's stupid preflop?

It's difficult, because if either of them call, and we get to a flop, it's gonna suck.

Maybe just be stupid, muck, and wait for a better spot?

[IowaSkinsFan]

Interesting 4 bet size spot.
Your OOP so I think you have to make it big. The problem is if BU calls we have no clue where we are at and are likely behind. CO push is a clear fold. I almost want to threebet to say.... $32. Something that induces a fish to call with like 98s but really isnt a good idea for him to do. In pos that's what I'd do.
The easiest thing is to threebet to 45 and dont fold.

Calling just seems so meh since we only get a good flop 60% of the time and the other 40% we're ahead a lot.

[SmackinYaUp]

How often is the lagtard 3betting pf? The original raiser has loose enough PFR #s that I would just push here if the lag is that insane.

A decent reraise here is going to be at least half your stack so if you're playing this hand you're felting it.

Every other time I would fold this preflop but with the lagtard in there its a pretty easy push. The original raiser is going to have a very hard time calling your push if he doesn't have AA or KK. You might even get him to fold QQ. If the lag has you beat, oh well.


edit - calling here is pointless because you're not set-hunting for $15, you're stuck between a raise and 3bet, and you are defining your hand. Just have to decide preflop if your hand is best vs the likely ranges and I suspect it is unless the lag doesnt 3bet much.

[Galapogos]

I'm with SmackinYaUp. I definately push here with these guys especially since the betting is CO vs BU.

[lolzzz_321]

22/17 is the new nit!

[Fnord]

Re-raise to 40, shove any flop.

[|~|ypermegachi]

22/17 is the new nit!

sorry, shoulda been a little more clear.
TAG preflop.
<1.5 AF postflop.

[|~|ypermegachi]

I'm with SmackinYaUp. I definately push here with these guys especially since the betting is CO vs BU.

since when did cash turn into SnGs???

we're risking ~$110 to win $20.

i was chatting with Pelion and bigspenda73 last night on vent, and we assigned the following ranges:

CO: 19%, any pair, all broadways, T9s+
BTN: 12%, 88+, most broadways
HERO: JJ

we have around 43% equity here. what % would both villains have to fold for this to be +EV? i'm assuming that we're beat every time we're called, because i don't think anyone is calling with less than QQ or AK, maybe AQ. but even against QQ+, we'll suck out 20% of the time.

this kind of math is new to me and i just woke up. maybe someone else can finish off what i started to see if we can mathematically prove whether pushing is most +EV.

[Galapogos]

I can't prove it mathematically but the thing is, calling just sucks. Because once the board comes out with a K or whatever you're gonna be scared and could easily fold the best hand. And folding's not cool as you have a bit of a monster hand with two guys with these stats and their relative position. So you can push or do it Fnord's way, either way though, all the money's getting in.

And no I'm not using SnG theory. You would not make this play against any other two players (expcept LAgg and LAgg). And their positions widen both their ranges. This is far from a standard push or 4-bet but with all the information given in this hand I think it is the rare time it has to be.

[Trashcona]

Re-raise to 40, shove any flop.

Are we calling a BU push if we do this? I'm assuming we have to fold if CO pushes(based on the reads).