400NL: 4-bet 77 in blinds battle?

[JeffreyGB]

History: I've played one hand other than the blinds in the 3 previous orbits at the table. I also raised from SB, was 3-bet by this opp (17/15 over 50 hands), and 4-bet holding AQ twice. Trash in the following orbit, followed by this receiving 77 and again seeing the table fold to my SB.

First off, do you raise knowing that villain is 3-betting light, given your history? Assuming so, what is your play when he does 3-bet? Calling for set-value seems ridiculous even though you're getting reasonable odds against AA, because he's 3-betting light (meaning you're not getting paid off enough postflop). 4-betting seems marginal too. And folding seems terrible given that you knew he'd 3-bet a lot.

What range of hands would you 4-bet? ATs? ATo? KQs? JTs? 99? 55?
What range of hands would you open, knowing that you expect a 3-bet frequently?

[Pelion]

I just had a thought and Im not sure yet if it makes sense. If we know hes 3betting light then how about working out a 4betting range and then only open with that 4 betting range? That way he'd be making a FToP mistake for a relatively big pot (e.g. 3betting with 77 or whatever Vs our 99) and we'd only be making a FToP mistake with a marginal hand out of position in a tiny pot when we open fold 55 preflop to his 83o.

[JeffreyGB]

That's kind of what I'm thinking too...except I don't know what "FToP mistake" means.

[gingerwizard]

Sklansky's fundamental thoery of poker.

Question: If he's always hyper aggressive and 3 betting all over the place, why can't you limp/call and play poker on the flop?

[Pelion]

Sklansky's fundamental thoery of poker.

Question: If he's always hyper aggressive and 3 betting all over the place, why can't you limp/call and play poker on the flop?

because "playing poker" with weakish hands out of position sucks.

[zook]

Did the AQ 4-bet hands see a flop or showdown?

[Fnord]

Option 1:
I just call pre-flop if I think he will raise ATC and play post-flop badly.

Option 2:
Raise, hope he 3-bets me then check/raise most flops all-in (depends on stack depth.)

[JeffreyGB]

Did the AQ 4-bet hands see a flop or showdown?

No. He folded to both 4-bets. How does that affect it? Ignoring the information we gain from knowing pieces of his range, how does it affect it if we see a show down (ultimately meaning he has seen that we do this with AQ)?

I'm asking because I want to explore both lines of thinking - what happens when all he sees is that we're 4-betting and he's folding vs. what happens if he sees we 4-bet AQ.

[Fnord]

Why are we 4-betting instead of letting him spew on the flop?

[JeffreyGB]

Option 1:
I just call pre-flop if I think he will raise ATC and play post-flop badly.

Option 2:
Raise, hope he 3-bets me then check/raise most flops all-in (depends on stack depth.)

What ranges in this type of situation do you look for to take each option? Why?

[JeffreyGB]

Why are we 4-betting instead of letting him spew on the flop?

In general, or specifically with the previous AQ hands?

[JeffreyGB]

Really in either case it comes down to not wanting to play out of position with a hand that beats his range but is marginal when missing most flops.

You prefer c/r ai as a standard line with both AQ and 77? I guess we win more when he misses and goes away, but we definitely lose more when he makes a hand and we pay him off. Some hands we'd rather not be against will go away now as well...88-TT, JTs, and the like. We gain when the equity they have in the pot disappears (which obviously happens when they fold to our 4-bet).

[zook]

Did the AQ 4-bet hands see a flop or showdown?

No. He folded to both 4-bets. How does that affect it?

Well, he's obv more inclined to think that you're a lagg pushing him around if he hasn't seen you showdown either hand. But that will make some players tighten up and others loosen up, so I don't think it tells you much about his 3-bet range. I do think that if you 4-bet 77 this time and he pushes, you have to call, given that you've 4-bet him twice already.

I like Fnord's two options. If you complete, you're ahead of his raising range and while calling means you'll play a marginal hand oop, you shouldn't lose a big pot but could win one. If you raise, you're probably about even with his 3-betting range, and I think a c/r on almost any flop (except maybe multiple broadways) would be +EV.

[IowaSkinsFan]

if u think he's raising a large frequency of hands from the BB if u limp, and calling/threebetting a lot less of them, just limp and act like the PFR.

[JeffreyGB]

Assuming we're just going to limp-call with 77, where do you draw the line between a hand that's not good enough to limp-call and a hand that is? Where do you draw the line between a hand that's good enough to limp-call and a hand that you definitely want to raise? Of those, with which do you call an impending 3-bet and with which do you 4-bet?

Lots of questions, but I'm looking for general/theoretical exploration. The 77 hand never happened, but it creates an interesting spot that I've been near a few times and expect to encounter more as I face more light 3-betting.

[Fnord]

Option 1:
I just call pre-flop if I think he will raise ATC and play post-flop badly.

Option 2:
Raise, hope he 3-bets me then check/raise most flops all-in (depends on stack depth.)

What ranges in this type of situation do you look for to take each option? Why?

Stack sizes and post-flop reads.

[JeffreyGB]

Option 1:
I just call pre-flop if I think he will raise ATC and play post-flop badly.

Option 2:
Raise, hope he 3-bets me then check/raise most flops all-in (depends on stack depth.)

What ranges in this type of situation do you look for to take each option? Why?

Stack sizes and post-flop reads.

Let's assume 100BB effective stacks. Postflop if villain is terrible, then clearly we play a flop. Let's discuss situations where villain seems like a fairly capable Tag and/or a fairly capable Lag. Either way, with 50 hands we don't have enough experience with him to say a whole lot.

[Fnord]

Yeah, my back-of-the-napkin math has us over-betting the flop if we check/raise with 100bb stacks.

[Vi-Zer0Skill]

I apologize in advance that this post is slightly off topic, since the original post was on BvB countering of 3betting, but once i was mostly through writing this was when that dawned on me.

Cool thread, Jeffrey. When i first read Pelion's post i became curious to see how opening with a 4bet range would work out for me compared to my opening ranges unajusted.

I open ~34% of hands from the CO/BTN.
I open ~12% of hands from UTG/UTG +1

If villain 3bets 10% of his total hands and is a good player who is mostly 3betting my CO/BTN ranges, i am going to be losing a ton of value by reducing my opening range to 4-6% of hands, aren't i? It seems also that once this opponent had noticed i had tightened up, he would stop to 3bet me as light. I went ahead and ran some ranges anyways, because you may open with one of these hands and get 3bet by a light 3bettor at some point...

After some playing with pokerstove, i believe that against this "random" 3bet range, that my 4bet range below would be optimal based on size and equity advantage. The range below is 6% of total hands against villain's 3betting range of 10% of total hands.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

16,903,865,088 games 0.005 secs 3,380,773,017,600 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 57.251% 55.30% 01.95% 9348635296 329064158.00 { 99+, AQs+, KQs, AQo+, KQo }
Hand 1: 42.749% 40.80% 01.95% 6897101476 329064158.00 { 66+, AQs+, K6s-K2s, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, AQo+ }


But the 3bet range that i posted above is i think a well balanced range, and IMO most players at 100NL don't 3bet a good range (K-10/A-7 type hands) for the limit they are playing at. So, for this next "stoving" i am going to assume the 3bettor is a 100NL regular who isn't very good at 3betting. The range i have given him is the top 10% of hands (a linear range).


Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

15,725,799,936 games 0.016 secs 982,862,496,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 43.549% 41.33% 02.21% 6500114796 348235834.00 { 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 1: 56.451% 54.24% 02.21% 8529213472 348235834.00 { 77+, AQs+, AQo+ }


---


I again am 4betting 6% of total hands against this villain's 3betting range. Note this time we have more pocket pairs and less overcards, because our opponent is now opening a range that is including more middle Ace/King type hands.


One argument to my thoughts here is that we will have a difficult time determining which hands our opponents are 3betting us with. This is why i take detailed notes on what my opponents show down in RR pots. I highly recommend that other players at my limit start doing this. After a few weeks (15-40k hands), you will start to have a good idea of what the regulars are 3betting with and your can exploit them massively by 4betting a good range.



Well, in conclusion i feel that 4betting light is probably not the best line to take against a light 3bettor until you know what he is 3betting you with since if you 4bet a range that does not fare well against villain's 3bet range you are going to be losing a lot of value. Many of the earlier posts advise generally tightening up or making decisions on the flop, and i think with less information on your opponents this is the best idea. But i think 4betting a balanced range, with good information on your opponents 3bet range, is a powerful counter.