5/10 - A5s multi-way line check

[zook]

UTG is a 23/16/2.1 reg. I've seen him around but we don't have any history. SB is an unknown shortstack, just joined the table. BB is another regular, 19/15/3.3, again no history.

Nonstandard line for me. Thoughts on flop and turn?

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Holdem Ring game - Blinds: $5/$10 - 6 players - Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $1000
UTG+1: $265.50
Hero: $1272.75
Button: $1530
SB: $384
BB: $1163

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with A 5
UTG raises to $35, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: 8 4 4 ($140, 4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Turn: A ($140, 4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets $90, Hero calls, 2 folds.

River: 9 ($320, 2 players)
UTG bets $210, Hero raises all-in $1147.75

[sauce123]

turn/river- thumbs up!

preflop- thumbs down

flop- thumbs medium

[IowaSkinsFan]

The only reason to make this call pre is for metagame reasons that aren't even that necessary.

Everything else is good. I just hate getting blown off my draw on the flop.

[gabe]

preflop is absolutely fine.

i dont like river. even though you are way ahead of his river betting range, you are way behind is shove-calling range. if he has a low flush he folds it in a second, although he might not fold KQh.

i actually like a turn raise sometimes because they fold some better aces and it can set up a free showdown.

[crazycrazy]

i think the turn call is fine b ecause he dont really beat any ace and he still may cal the river bet if he misses his flush and get value from pp's which villain bet scare ace with on turn.

[pocketfours]

I think I would b/f the flop here quite often. UTG probably doesn't have an overpair and SB+BB got very good odds to call pre with a wide range, so I think you have pretty decent fold equity and you are in good shape against most of their calling range. If you get called on the flop you will almost always get a free river because you have position.

Anyone think b/f flop is a mistake?

River seems thin against reg. 88/99/A8/A9 or a bluff is big part of his range and pushing against those hands is clearly -ev. Lower flushes won't call often enough to compensate. Probably close to zero ev.

[minSim]

preflop- thumbs down

The only reason to make this call pre is for metagame reasons that aren't even that necessary.

preflop is absolutely fine.

This is at least interesting to me.
Could you guys go into a bit more detail about it?

For example how the following things influence our decision:
- UTG's stats
- The fact that he's UTG (what if he was MP? CO? are we 3-betting somewhere?)
- Stacks
- Hero's position (does being on BTN instead of CO change anything? What about being in CO/BTN versus being in blinds)

[sauce123]

gabe is just a fish

[zook]

For a decent player post-flop I don't think this pre-flop decision is much of an issue. But whether I'm a decent post-flop player is an arguable point.

[IowaSkinsFan]

How is preflop okay gabe? We get squeezed out a fair amount, A5s is not a good hand against UTG raising range. We can get sandwiched from the BU. I just highly doubt this is a +EV call, and even if it's only slightly -EV I don't think metagame really makes up for it.

[gabe]

For a decent player post-flop I don't think this pre-flop decision is much of an issue. But whether I'm a decent post-flop player is an arguable point.

yea, thats why im surprised people want to discuss it because turn and river are alot more interesting

[IowaSkinsFan]

For a decent player post-flop I don't think this pre-flop decision is much of an issue. But whether I'm a decent post-flop player is an arguable point.

yea, thats why im surprised people want to discuss it because turn and river are alot more interesting

Okay fine u got me there.

[IowaSkinsFan]

i dont like river. even though you are way ahead of his river betting range, you are way behind is shove-calling range. if he has a low flush he folds it in a second, although he might not fold KQh.

These spots just annoy me because I'd like to use the argument "well why don't we just shove air more?" But obviously we can't because we never show up with air in this spot. I'm interested if maybe we should be calling the turn with 76,65, and 75 because of this issue.

[zook]

Back to an interesting street...

i actually like a turn raise sometimes because they fold some better aces and it can set up a free showdown.

Say I make a small turn raise to $300. If he pushes it's $575 to call to win $1405, making it a mandatory call even though I'm always behind if he pushes. I guess the question is how he plays AT+ to a turn raise. It definitely puts him in a tough spot. But it also folds weaker flush draws (which admittedly make up a small part of his range as played).

I don't think I like a turn raise here.

[sauce123]

the preflop thing- in all my research on the game/ advice ive been given etc etc this call is slightly -ev against a decent EP raiser.

can gabe play it profitably? Idk, probably, maybe, who cares?

[gabe]

Back to an interesting street...

i actually like a turn raise sometimes because they fold some better aces and it can set up a free showdown.

Say I make a small turn raise to $300. If he pushes it's $575 to call to win $1405, making it a mandatory call even though I'm always behind if he pushes. I guess the question is how he plays AT+ to a turn raise. It definitely puts him in a tough spot. But it also folds weaker flush draws (which admittedly make up a small part of his range as played).

I don't think I like a turn raise here.

good players at 5/10 push with a hand that can't beat 4x here about .0001% of the time. i think raise to 260ish and fold to a push is good.