Bad laydown??

[gametight]

100 NL FR
I have $115, villain covers
4players limp in
i limp in lp with 66
button limps ( he is TAGG reg running at 10/8/4, we havent tangled)


Flop comes 6h 7s As

utg bets 5
3folds
I raise to 16
Button makes it 41
HERO folds?

[BankItDrew]

no, hero pushes.

given the preflop action, button couldn't have AA, so 77 is the only hand you need to worry about.

2 pair, is exponentially more likely than a higher set.

i bet utg has the AA.... but push anyways. i only say this because hh are usually gross showdowns.

[gametight]

no everyone folded. I almost pushed but I thought I had to worry about utgs possible AA. I also thought he had to consider that too.

No showdown, so I guess Ill never know. Why cant people just check call for stax anmore!?

[bigspenda73]

wow

[Jack Sawyer]

Bad laydown?

Yes. Don't fold sets here, k tnx.

[martindcx1e]

it hurt my eyes to read this

wtf are you playing 66 for if you fold here?

[Pelion]

yea this is bad. Easy shove

[gametight]

Isnt there any merit to trying not to loose a stack in an unraised pot? Do you guys really just shove here everytime against the tightest guy at the table???

[Jack Sawyer]

Isnt there any merit to trying not to loose a stack in an unraised pot? Do you guys really just shove here everytime against the tightest guy at the table???

Yes. As explained, you have to be afraid of only two hands here. You will get called by flushdraws and two pair a lot here.


Basically, in the long run, it is very unprofitable to fold sets.

[bigspenda73]

Tight does not mean passive

[kmind]

I'd give anything to be able to get my money in with this board/situation

[gametight]

F _ U C K ! ! !

[martindcx1e]

F _ U C K ! ! !

indeed

[bigspenda73]

actually, wait, I just noticed this is FullRing.

Yea, this could be a fold, I mean it's not, but it certainly could be.

[daven]

I've decided not to fold flopped sets on the flop anymore unless....
actually, cut out the caveats. I'm just not gonna do it. And bet I win a lot more than I lose...

[martindcx1e]

Yea, this could be a fold, I mean it's not, but it certainly could be.

lol what does that mean?

[Jack Sawyer]

Yea, this could be a fold, I mean it's not, but it certainly could be.

lol what does that mean?

He means it could be, but its not. But it certainly could be, but its definitely not.

We need a wikipedia just to understand spenda

[martindcx1e]

Yea, this could be a fold, I mean it's not, but it certainly could be.

lol what does that mean?

He means it could be, but its not. But it certainly could be, but its definitely not.

you just blew my mind

[Unibomber14]

it hurt my eyes to read this

wtf are you playing 66 for if you fold here?

folding flopped set = REALLY BAD SET ODDS!

If the flop went 67K, would you fold? I mean, what if he has kings?

[Unibomber14]

also,

Yea, this could be a fold, I mean it's not, but it certainly could be.

lol what does that mean?

He means it could be, but its not. But it certainly could be, but its definitely not.

We need a wikipedia just to understand spenda

"The game's chess; it aint checkers"

duh.

[Miffed22001]

how many more threads im i going to have post in with 'dont fold sets on the flop with only 100bbs behind'
Im not fucking kidding either.

this is NOT a decison, puuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuush.

[ChrisBCritter]

how many more threads im i going to have post in with 'dont fold sets on the flop with only 100bbs behind'
Im not fucking kidding either.

this is NOT a decison, puuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuush.

QFT.

There seems to be a rash of hands lately with people trying to fold sets... IDKY

[bigspenda73]

Yea, this could be a fold, I mean it's not, but it certainly could be.

lol what does that mean?

I mean against the right opponent I could see folding this. However, the board has a flush draw and hands like A7/A6 will want to felt as well. It's a lot closer than everyone is making it and I myself, Miff, am getting tired of your blanket answer here.

It's Full Ring, he has bottom set in a limped pot, and a player with a tight image is being very aggressive. FWIW I'm not that giddy to get all the money in here, but I still do. I don't think he has a draw too much cuz he'd just shove the flop, so I'm putting him on 77/AK/A6/A7/8s9s/4s5s which we are ahead of but just barely but I weight it severly towards 77/8s9s/4s5s but like i said I think he just shoves with 8s9s/4s5s type hands.

Yea, the more I look at it the more I think it's 77/combo-draw. We still have UTG left to act behind us, so it's really meh, really meh. Why can't UTG have AA?

Frankly I'm just sick and tired of everyone giving the same standard response in every thread.

[martindcx1e]

Frankly I'm just sick and tired of everyone giving the same standard response in every thread.

and we are just tired of ppl folding when they are ahead of opponent's range.

[bigspenda73]

Last time I checked gametight was a winning player, maybe some of you could learn a little from the way he thinks.

[Cocco_Bill]

push push..stuff you are beating: 67 A7 A6 87s 45s 87 etc you are really only worried about 77 and if UTG has AA pay him off and smile

[Miffed22001]

89s is soooooo in his range here.

[martindcx1e]

Last time I checked gametight was a winning player, maybe some of you could learn a little from the way he thinks.

to me it looks like gametight learned from the rest of us not to fold in spots like this. i'm not sure what we are supposed to be learning from him in this thread.

[NLHE lahooozaher]

I don't understand the worry about UTG here. It seems OP just left out what UTG did because UTG bets, hero raises, button reraises, and action should be on UTG and we see what he does so he is of no concern here.

I think this is a bad fold, w/e. It's pretty close as bigspenda says. I'm not happy getting all in here, but I do.

[Miffed22001]

Last time I checked gametight was a winning player, maybe some of you could learn a little from the way he thinks.

i dont mean to sound patronizing, but its small stakes and he has a set.
who the fuck folds because it MIGHT be set over set.

If we have to fold set over set to maintain a positive bbs/100 then we fucking suck at poker. Otherwise such a spot should lead to us getting stacked because our hand is so strong, plus it has sooooo much equity.
We also have no guarantee he has set making any discussion of folding irrelevant. Our opponents cannot be given enough credit for us to fold here.

*shakes head*

[martindcx1e]

Last time I checked gametight was a winning player, maybe some of you could learn a little from the way he thinks.

i dont mean to sound patronizing, but its small stakes and he has a set.
who the fuck folds because it MIGHT be set over set.

If we have to fold set over set to maintain a positive bbs/100 then we fucking suck at poker. Otherwise such a spot should lead to us getting stacked because our hand is so strong, plus it has sooooo much equity.
We also have no guarantee he has set making any discussion of folding irrelevant. Our opponents cannot be given enough credit for us to fold here.

*shakes head*

lol ya spenda what's the deal man? are you just trying to get a rise out of us?

[bigspenda73]

Last time I checked gametight was a winning player, maybe some of you could learn a little from the way he thinks.

i dont mean to sound patronizing, but its small stakes and he has a set.
who the fuck folds because it MIGHT be set over set.

If we have to fold set over set to maintain a positive bbs/100 then we fucking suck at poker. Otherwise such a spot should lead to us getting stacked because our hand is so strong, plus it has sooooo much equity.
We also have no guarantee he has set making any discussion of folding irrelevant. Our opponents cannot be given enough credit for us to fold here.

*shakes head*

lol ya spenda what's the deal man? are you just trying to get a rise out of us?

I'm not saying folding is correct but I see way too many of you guys as calling stations here. In fact, pretty much all of you. I like the fact that fold actually goes through Mix's mind here, it shows a higher level of thinking about the actions in the hand. However, he may have leveled himself, as this most likely is not a fold. I can see against the right player that this is a fold. What if villain plays draws passively? If that's the case we're pretty much praying for A7.

I'm not saying to play the hand like he did, but there's nothing wrong with actually thinking about our opponents hand ranges instead of going "durrrrr, we're 100bb deep, I guess I just shove cuz that's what Miff says all the time"

[Muzzard]

Flop comes 6h 7s As

utg bets 5
3folds
I raise to 16
Button makes it 41
HERO folds?

Wait, UTG has to act first. If UTG 4-bets this flop then we can start thinking about folding. If he folds I think its an easy push, if he calls IDK it's a tricky one - I don't think I could get away from it.

I'd be more worried about what UTG does as there are less hands in his range, not really worried about button as he could easily have FD/two pair/straight or combo draw as well as a set. We are well ahead of most of the range, just because he is tight preflop doesn't mean he isn't aggro post flop with draws

[martindcx1e]

I'm not saying to play the hand like he did, but there's nothing wrong with actually thinking about our opponents hand ranges instead of going "durrrrr, we're 100bb deep, I guess I just shove cuz that's what Miff says all the time"

we are all saying auto-shove bc we are way ahead of opponent's range, which is almost always the case when we hold a set, which is why we always say don't fold. the times that we aren't ahead of their range are so rare that it's safe to say never fold.

[Miffed22001]

Last time I checked gametight was a winning player, maybe some of you could learn a little from the way he thinks.

i dont mean to sound patronizing, but its small stakes and he has a set.
who the fuck folds because it MIGHT be set over set.

If we have to fold set over set to maintain a positive bbs/100 then we fucking suck at poker. Otherwise such a spot should lead to us getting stacked because our hand is so strong, plus it has sooooo much equity.
We also have no guarantee he has set making any discussion of folding irrelevant. Our opponents cannot be given enough credit for us to fold here.

*shakes head*

lol ya spenda what's the deal man? are you just trying to get a rise out of us?

I'm not saying folding is correct but I see way too many of you guys as calling stations here. In fact, pretty much all of you. I like the fact that fold actually goes through Mix's mind here, it shows a higher level of thinking about the actions in the hand. However, he may have leveled himself, as this most likely is not a fold. I can see against the right player that this is a fold. What if villain plays draws passively? If that's the case we're pretty much praying for A7.

I'm not saying to play the hand like he did, but there's nothing wrong with actually thinking about our opponents hand ranges instead of going "durrrrr, we're 100bb deep, I guess I just shove cuz that's what Miff says all the time"

i really havent wanted to make this statement before, and after winning 67k i probably have no right, although ive made my way to 1/2 2/4 without luckboxxing it, but what stakes are you playing spenda that folding a SET is +EV?
Otherwise the arguement of folding here is irrelevant. As soon as you add in one hand that isnt a set into opps range you MUST felt your hand.
If this pot were raised would you ask us to fold?
Also, would you fold a boat just because the possibilty existed your opponent might have a straight flush...?

[bigspenda73]

I play the same stakes as Mix but at 6max. It's a game with different dynamics really, full ring that is. It's more of a game of cards than of players. TAGG's at his level aren't 3betting the flop with combo-draws, they're either calling/pushing/folding. I mean, take a look at the action. Why in the world would you 3bet to 41 with a draw? Nah, he has 77/A7/67s and it's weighted to 77 a lot.

[Muzzard]

Why in the world would you 3bet to 41 with a draw?

Maybe UTG and Villain are deeper than Hero? Villain is three betting the combo draw so he could consider folding to a UTG 4-bet or shove. If UTG folds and Hero shoves he is priced in with 40% equity versus a set anyway if he has 8s9s.

If UTG and and Villain are roughly as deep as Hero then I'm leaning toward your way of thinking now. It is more likely to be A7/A6/67s or 77, still though we are beating three of those 4 hands and I can't find a fold.

It's more interesting if UTG 4-bets/shoves the flop, I think it would be right to fold then unless he is terrible. That would be one situation where I could press the fold button with a set

[Miffed22001]

I play the same stakes as Mix but at 6max. It's a game with different dynamics really, full ring that is. It's more of a game of cards than of players. TAGG's at his level aren't 3betting the flop with combo-draws, they're either calling/pushing/folding. I mean, take a look at the action. Why in the world would you 3bet to 41 with a draw? Nah, he has 77/A7/67s and it's weighted to 77 a lot.

so you're telling me that 100% of the time in this spot he has AA or 77...

[bigspenda73]

Miffed, why is it so hard to believe that we could actually be behind in the hand?

I think A LOT of the time we're up against 77 here, I don't think a draw plays this way, so in my mind we're hoping for A7s. I mean, give me a break dude, you haven't given any argument for why your range is correct and all you've been trying to do is find a way to maintain your "folding a set..." blah blah blah bullshit.

I mean, stop with the fucking one-line horseshit already. Seriosuly it's really pissing me off, poker is much more than a one-liner game. He has a range of hands with each action, through my reasoning his range has been dwindled down to only a few hands, and granted against his "range" we're behind slight but getting a good price, but if we weight it much more to 77 than A7 we're well behind and cannot continue. Once again, you've done nothing at all to prove your point, only tried to disprove mine. Why?

[Vi-Zer0Skill]

folding a set for 100BB's in a limped pot is different than folding a set for 100BB's in a raised pot.


Here's a pokerstove, for what i would percieve villain's range to be:

Board: 6h 7s As
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 36.869% 36.87% 00.00% 4380 0.00 { AcAs, 77, A7s, A7o }
Hand 1: 63.131% 63.13% 00.00% 7500 0.00 { 6c6d }


A-A is heavily discounted as it is button who is giving Hero the action.

[Vi-Zer0Skill]

Take A-7o out, and Hero is no longer favored against villain's range. Add more A-A combinations, and the same thing happens obviously.

It's worth getting all in with the dead money in the pot, regardless.

Board: 6h 7s As
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 62.496% 62.50% 00.00% 4331 0.00 { AcAd, 77, A7s }
Hand 1: 37.504% 37.50% 00.00% 2599 0.00 { 6c6d }


---


Board: 6h 7s As
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 69.865% 69.87% 00.00% 6225 0.00 { AA, 77, A7s }
Hand 1: 30.135% 30.13% 00.00% 2685 0.00 { 6c6d }


---

[martindcx1e]

A6s and 67s have to be part of the range too.

[bigspenda73]

only 1 six left in the deck....

[martindcx1e]

it's definitely more likely than AA imo

[Miffed22001]

Miffed, why is it so hard to believe that we could actually be behind in the hand?

I think A LOT of the time we're up against 77 here, I don't think a draw plays this way, so in my mind we're hoping for A7s. I mean, give me a break dude, you haven't given any argument for why your range is correct and all you've been trying to do is find a way to maintain your "folding a set..." blah blah blah bullshit.

I mean, stop with the fucking one-line horseshit already. Seriosuly it's really pissing me off, poker is much more than a one-liner game. He has a range of hands with each action, through my reasoning his range has been dwindled down to only a few hands, and granted against his "range" we're behind slight but getting a good price, but if we weight it much more to 77 than A7 we're well behind and cannot continue. Once again, you've done nothing at all to prove your point, only tried to disprove mine. Why?

having read the first line reread my posts. It isnt a case of us being behind its a case of how much equity do we have in this spot versus opp's range. Answer: too much not to be felting.

[bigspenda73]

if we determine that opp's range does NOT include draws, is felting actually better than calling?