Wow I didn't know I sucked this bad

[Deanglow]

I misplayed this hand in so many ways. Comments on FTR are appreciated. Is this an autopush on river? Assume no reads.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($169.85)
BB ($35.60)
Hero ($99)
UTG+1 ($111.80)
MP1 ($134.10)
MP2 ($231.90)
MP3 ($100)
CO ($84.40)
Button ($135.55)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, A.
Hero calls $1, 1 fold, MP1 calls $1, 3 folds, Button calls $1, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($5) 2, 3, 5 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $3, MP1 calls $3, Button folds, SB calls $3, BB folds.

Turn: ($14) 6 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks.

River: ($14) 9 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $10, MP1 calls $10, SB raises to $30, Hero?

[NLHE lahooozaher]

Preflop is teh suck, obv. I don't push river. I don't think he's putting in 95bbs on the river with a hand we beat in a nothing pot.

[BankItDrew]

I don't mind preflop, because slowplaying the nuts can be very profitable. ****Just don't tip your hand heads up preflop. *****

I think you played this hand the exact same way I would have. To answer your question: NO.

First of all, I do not put villain on a straight flush. Thus, I'm trying to get in as many chips as possible on this river.

Secondly, Assume villain has the , because this is best case scenerio. assuming best case scenerio when we have the nuts = highest EV possible.

This is not a push because any half decent player has the ability to fold 70+bb in such a situation. Instead, I raise for value... raise the most amount that this player in partcular will call with the .

I would add $30.

[BankItDrew]

dude... i just re-read your topic title and first sentance. Don't tip off the results. According to your words (although lack of diction), you lost this hand.

fold preflop.

[daven]

pre-flop = yuck, but worked out ok for you.
flop = fine
turn = checking vs bet $10 about 50-50 here. Think check is ok after the oesd completed.

River = only one scare hand right? 4h6h. Ignore the possibility, I don't mind stacking off ace high flush vs two cards to a straight flush.
Your range doesn't look like it includes the ace of hearts - AhAx, AhKx, AhQx normally raise pre, AhXh normally put some money in on turn = I doubt anyone is scared of the ace high flush. Your value bet size is fine, how much to re-raise? Pot is $64, MP has $120 left, SB $136, you have $85. I think pushing gets rid of MP, may lose SB as well. Just calling loses value. Raising $50ish more may keep MP in and SB calls or hopefully pushes. Raise to between $70 and $85.

[bigspenda73]

don't raise/don't fold

[martindcx1e]

don't raise/don't fold

why on earth wouldn't you raise?

[bigspenda73]

don't raise/don't fold

why on earth wouldn't you raise?

because I understand poker theory?

[BankItDrew]

don't raise/don't fold

why on earth wouldn't you raise?

because I understand poker theory?

This doesn't explain anything, and I can't think of anything that might.

We cannot put villain on

[Renton]

i would shove river

[martindcx1e]

don't raise/don't fold

why on earth wouldn't you raise?

because I understand poker theory?

lol yes, obviously villain flopped a straight flush. are you joking spenda or are you the biggest nit ever?

and i'm with renton on this one i think...i have no problem with shoving.

[bigspenda73]

don't raise/don't fold

why on earth wouldn't you raise?

because I understand poker theory?

lol yes, obviously villain flopped a straight flush. are you joking spenda or are you the biggest nit ever?

and i'm with renton on this one i think...i have no problem with shoving.

It's close really, what calls a shove on the river? Do we honestly believe anything besides the nuts are going to look us up here? Even though we have the second nuts it doesn't mean it's always profitable to raise here. Look at the hand, notice our river bet was already called, we can than believe this player to have the :Kh: which means when the SB c/r's he either has the nuts/air. That means a 3bet has zero expectation of being called by a worse hand.


Let me ask you this, if you held the Kh on a 2h3h7hJhQx board, would you b/3b all-in on the river?

Finally, I am not the biggest nit ever, in-fact I VB very light. And yes, I'm being serious about this.

[martindcx1e]

mp1's call does not guarantee he has the .

[Deanglow]

The topic and statement in the post has nothing to do with results. When MP calls I put him 10h-Qh, maybe K. When SB raises I think to myself "wow would he really do this with the Kh?" Not posting results yet.

[martindcx1e]

i would expect the straight flush to raise much larger to "make up" for slowplaying earlier in the hand.

[zook]

Pot the flop, shove the river. Reminraise is fine too if you really think players are capable of folding the Kh to a shove here (which I don't).

[bigspenda73]

mp1's call does not guarantee he has the .

whooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh

man you guys are good at missing the point.

[martindcx1e]

mp1's call does not guarantee he has the .

whooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh

man you guys are good at missing the point.

spenda, you based your point about 3betting having zero expectation on the assumption that the sb has to have the nuts/air cuz mp1 has to have the Kh cuz he called your bet.

[Jack Sawyer]

I'm pushing this all day, every day, and twice on Sundays.

"Only hands that beat you will call you" The problem with this line of thinking (while it is right) is that you have to assume the other players (vilains) play perfect poker too. In this specific case, one hand, and only one hand beats me, and I'm more than willing to pay off.
SB likes his hand (anything like Jh, Qh, Kh, even Th), make him pay more.


IOW, hero deserves to be coolered for not raising to build pot/ iso/ yada yada etc. pf

[bigspenda73]

don't raise/don't fold

why on earth wouldn't you raise?

because I understand poker theory?

This doesn't explain anything, and I can't think of anything that might.

We cannot put villain on

I also want to note that I am not putting either villain on 6h4h

[martindcx1e]

don't raise/don't fold

why on earth wouldn't you raise?

because I understand poker theory?

This doesn't explain anything, and I can't think of anything that might.

We cannot put villain on

I also want to note that I am not putting either villain on 6h4h

but you are saying that the only hand that sb calls any type of raise with is 6h 4h, and that mp1 has to have the Kh, right?

the only case i can see for calling is if you think that mp1 has the Kh and that even a minraise gets folds from both players where as a call might string along mp1 for $20 more.

[Deanglow]

Spenda if you don't put either villain on the SF then why did you post "don't raise/don't fold?" Please explain.

[martindcx1e]

Spenda if you don't put either villain on the SF then why did you post "don't raise/don't fold?" Please explain.

he thinks the sb has the sf or air and that only a sf will call any raise amount.

[zook]

Remember mp1's left to act behind us and will be getting great odds to call if we do. That may be spenda's point. Meh, I still like a shove b/c there's a lot of money behind and sb's c/r is really strong.

[bigspenda73]

Spenda if you don't put either villain on the SF then why did you post "don't raise/don't fold?" Please explain.

I already explained it but I'll try to make it easier to understand. Here's some poker theory for you NL players.

Value betting on the river

It's simple, when considering whether or not to make a value-bet/value-raise on the river you do not consider if you have the best hand or not (this would be first leveling type play). You have to consider whether or not you'll have the best hand >50% of the time when called. If you will only be called by better hands a value-bet, even with the second nuts, has a negative (or zero at best) expectation.

That's the key to my entire argument. If you feel that when your river 3bet gets called (if you shoved) or raised (when you min-raise) you'll have the best hand >50% of the time, then your bet has a positive expectation. However, in my honest assessment of the situation, if you were to 3bet the river, you would not get looked up by a worse hand >50% of the time when you are either called/raised.

Even if you raise and get a fold, your raise was still poor IMO because it just further justifies my point.

I hope you guys can at least open your poker-minds and try to understand this. This may not be the perfect example to this situation, but it's one that holds merit. I could be wrong, there's no strong read on your opponents. If they're weak-tight 100nl FR regs like I assume then they're never calling a river raise with the Kh. It's pretty obvious by the time you 3bet the river that the Kh isn't good.

[givememyleg]

don't raise/don't fold

why on earth wouldn't you raise?

because I understand poker theory?

lol what

[bigspenda73]

don't raise/don't fold

why on earth wouldn't you raise?

because I understand poker theory?

lol what

lolreadrightaboveyourpostjackassaments

[givememyleg]

also with no reads on the table, a limp rr is bad. i dont really like limp rr anyway really

[givememyleg]

don't raise/don't fold

why on earth wouldn't you raise?

because I understand poker theory?

lol what

lolreadrightaboveyourpostjackassaments

meh

[PapalRage]

I already explained it but I'll try to make it easier to understand. Here's some poker theory for you NL players.

Value betting on the river

It's simple, when considering whether or not to make a value-bet/value-raise on the river you do not consider if you have the best hand or not (this would be first leveling type play). You have to consider whether or not you'll have the best hand >50% of the time when called. If you will only be called by better hands a value-bet, even with the second nuts, has a negative (or zero at best) expectation.

That's the key to my entire argument. If you feel that when your river 3bet gets called (if you shoved) or raised (when you min-raise) you'll have the best hand >50% of the time, then your bet has a positive expectation. However, in my honest assessment of the situation, if you were to 3bet the river, you would not get looked up by a worse hand >50% of the time when you are either called/raised.

Even if you raise and get a fold, your raise was still poor IMO because it just further justifies my point.

I hope you guys can at least open your poker-minds and try to understand this. This may not be the perfect example to this situation, but it's one that holds merit. I could be wrong, there's no strong read on your opponents. If they're weak-tight 100nl FR regs like I assume then they're never calling a river raise with the Kh. It's pretty obvious by the time you 3bet the river that the Kh isn't good.

I think you are confusing your own argument here spenda. You say "If you feel that when your river 3bet gets called (if you shoved) or raised (when you min-raise) you'll have the best hand >50% of the time, then your bet has a positive expectation. " But discounting the possibility of either villian holding 6h4h, we will assuredly have the best hand > 50% of the time when they call or raise our 3-bet (note we dont have to get called > 50% of the time). The bet then clearly has a positive expectation. If you want to argue that we gain more by letting MP1 call the additional 20 that may have some merit but i dont think that is what you are trying to say.

Also, while while most regs will not call a 3-bet on the river with the Kh, we have to give our opponents a chance to let their suckage show. Ive seen much worse calls even at 200nl. If you adamantly believe a 3-bet will never get called by a Kh then a raise or call has no effect on our EV because then surely MP1 will fold their 10-Q h anyways.

and, fwiw, im also discounting 6h4h because i think the villian would have check/pushed trying to catch someone with the Ah.

[martindcx1e]

is it results time yet?

[Deanglow]

I ended up tanking for a minute and just calling. MP folded and sure enough the SB showed the Kh.

[martindcx1e]

I ended up tanking for a minute and just calling. MP folded and sure enough the SB showed the Kh.

boooo

[daven]

I love my post above even more now. Weak dude

[martindcx1e]

I love my post above even more now. Weak dude

same. hi-five!

[Jack Sawyer]

weeeeeeeeeee



push and get coolered next time

[djzcko]

Horribly played....raise pf, bet flop, bet turn and raise/shove river. As played, I raise that river every freakin' time. If he has a str8 flush, then so be it.

[bigspenda73]

I love my post above even more now. Weak dude

same. hi-five!

lol you guys are being results oriented and you still don't get it. The fact that he showed the Kh proves my point, not yours.

Also, Daven, shoving is far better than raising a smaller amount, if he's dumb enough to call with the Kh he's going to call any amount, so shoving maximizes our value.

Ok, I'm tired of thinking on different levels than everyone else, sorry for trying. From now on, stock one-liners will be all you'll hear from me!

[archangel95]

I think this is an easy all in...

were you going for a limp re-raise preflop?

[martindcx1e]

lol you guys are being results oriented and you still don't get it. The fact that he showed the Kh proves my point, not yours.

Also, Daven, shoving is far better than raising a smaller amount, if he's dumb enough to call with the Kh he's going to call any amount, so shoving maximizes our value.

Ok, I'm tired of thinking on different levels than everyone else, sorry for trying. From now on, stock one-liners will be all you'll hear from me!

I understand you completely spenda. I explained your point a couple times for others in this thread. I don't see how him having the Kh proves anyone's point though since the whole discussion was whether or not he would call a raise with it. Also, I think it's very possible for the Kh to call a min-raise and not a shove.

And I was joking with my little results oriented line. I know it's incorrect to say stuff like that.

were you going for a limp re-raise preflop?

obv

[bigspenda73]

meh, minraise has to be called like 3X more often than a shove, I don't think that'd be the case.

[Deanglow]

I think this is an easy all in...

were you going for a limp re-raise preflop?

No I was going to limp/call actually; I want as many people in the pot as possible so my aces can win big monies.

I understand the hand changes completely if I raise pre. One poster made a good point that the 64h would shove the river hoping for the A to call (I would anyway). That, along with the fact I have the 2nd frickin' nuts makes this a raise.

[Jay67s]

[quote="Deanglow"]

I think this is an easy all in...

were you going for a limp re-raise preflop?

No I was going to limp/call actually; I want as many people in the pot as possible so my aces can win big monies.


level???

[spoonitnow]

I flat call the river for the overcall. The Kh should be able to fold if you re-raise.

[martindcx1e]

I flat call the river for the overcall. The Kh should be able to fold if you re-raise.

and anything less should be able to fold to the raise and a call. i think the Kh calls a raise way more often than mp1 overcalls.

[archangel95]

I think this is an easy all in...

were you going for a limp re-raise preflop?

No I was going to limp/call actually; I want as many people in the pot as possible so my aces can win big monies.

I understand the hand changes completely if I raise pre. One poster made a good point that the 64h would shove the river hoping for the A to call (I would anyway). That, along with the fact I have the 2nd frickin' nuts makes this a raise.

What else do you limp reraise to balance your range?

[bigspenda73]

wait, the limp/call isn't a level?

[Deanglow]

I really only limp reraise AA/KK and sometimes AK. Yes I was planning on LRR.

[daven]

Also, Daven, shoving is far better than raising a smaller amount, if he's dumb enough to call with the Kh he's going to call any amount, so shoving maximizes our value.

depends if you get two callers, or if the raise inspires villain to push.
As for your post, I think it is one of the better I've seen, I read it and hear what you are saying - I'm just not certain that this is the best hand example, a point you made yourself.

as for being results orientated, I would have said the same if villain had shown the straight flush - it doesn't the thoughts behind my original post.

Value betting is interesting, when someone calls a pot-raise I often wonder if I should have pushed, when someone folds to a push I often wonder if I should have raised smaller. And value betting with the second nuts is even more interesting...

[wufwugy]

I kind of agree with Spenda. Nobody wants to pay off without the ace high flush on four-flush boards, and a 3bet reps that or better.

However, we're not really afraid of the straight flush. We should probably then shove and let Kh deliberate. No stats or reads were given, and some players will pay off with less here. Unknowns of a reg should be considered moderately fishy at the least.