good bye and good riddance

[will641]

to fidel castro!!!

today, as many of you probably know, fidel resigned officially from presidency. here is to another 49 years of some other asshole dictator for the cubans!

although you gotta tip your hat to fidel. in this day and age of bombs and long range guns, etc., it aint easy for a dictator to go 49 years without being assassinated, or a coup, or whatever.

[boost]

I mean... he wasnt the greatest leader on earth, but what exactly do you hate so much about him?

[Jack Sawyer]

conspiracy theory


he actually died last year


/conspiracy theory

[will641]

I mean... he wasnt the greatest leader on earth, but what exactly do you hate so much about him?

i mean its not like hes as bad as Mao, but hes responsible for 10's of thousands of deaths and hes a communist dictator. i dont really loathe him like i do saddam, but its a big event. i feel bad for anyone living in a dictatorship that doesnt have real freedom of speech.

[mcatdog]

This is terrific news. Also, Musharraf conceded defeat in Pakistan's elections, so that's two dictators gone in one day.

[mrhappy333]

How soon untill Americans can travel to Cuba? over/under 4yrs

[XTR1000]

I lol´ed hard when fidel offered to send cuban doctors to the US maybe two yrs ago

[Deanglow]

How soon untill Americans can travel to Cuba? over/under 4yrs

It will be a hell of a lot longer. The Cubans I know in Miami are all about punish them, sanction them! It is not politically strategic to let Americans go there.

[jyms]

This will get a lot messier before it's over.

[will641]

How soon untill Americans can travel to Cuba? over/under 4yrs

over over over

[Pelion]

hes responsible for 10's of thousands of deaths

which ones?

[shazbox]

hes responsible for 10's of thousands of deaths

which ones?

che guevara

[biondino]

And the other 9,999? (not taunting Will this time - I know nothing of Cuban history but was always under the impression Castro was fairly benign as dictators go)

[mrhappy333]

Why does the US have sanctions against CUBA and not CHINA?
Dont they both have horrible human rights violations, both are Communist Country/dictatorships?

[Pelion]

hes responsible for 10's of thousands of deaths

which ones?

che guevara

lol che guevara was executed in bolivia by the CIA + Bolivian army. Thats hardly castros fault.

[euphoricism]

And the other 9,999? (not taunting Will this time - I know nothing of Cuban history but was always under the impression Castro was fairly benign as dictators go)

Well, he *was* the leader of a guerilla movement that overthrew the older government. I'm not sure coups count, though.

Not up on my cuban history either. Just know that people will do obscenely dangerous life-threatening things to escape the place, so its gotta be pretty bad.

[Pelion]

He was one of the leaders of a populist mass movement that overthrew a US backed, right-wing backed military dictator called Batista who had only gained power through a military coup a few years before.

I think one of the reasons a lot people will do a lot to escape the place is because it has such a piss poor economy. The US has banned almost all trade in or out of Cuba, and since the collapse of the USSR they don't really have anyone left to do business with them.

[will641]

hes responsible for 10's of thousands of deaths

which ones?

che guevara

lol che guevara was executed in bolivia by the CIA + Bolivian army. Thats hardly castros fault.

okay are you trying to say that castro is not responsible for a single death in cuba?

[gabe]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_C..._rights_record

"Thousands of political opponents to the Castro regime have been killed, primarily during the first decade of his leadership."

bam

[euphoricism]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba explains it in detail

[will641]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro#Human_rights_record

"Thousands of political opponents to the Castro regime have been killed, primarily during the first decade of his leadership."

bam

yes and/or he sticks anyone in a prison who opposes him, which will surely result in death. it's estimated by an article in Time magazine that between 1958 and 1978, 80,000 people have been held as political prisoners. im just really not sure what you are trying to say pelion.

[Pelion]

okay are you trying to say that castro is not responsible for a single death in cuba?

No. I'm asking what deaths you are talking about? Its true that castro took power in a revolution. When you try to overthrow a vicious military dictatorship people tend to get killed, especially when the CIA in miami keeps training cuban expats into units to come back and invade, or training people to actually go back to cuba and plant terrorist bombs.

There was even a case in 2001 where 5 cubans in america were given life sentences (by the US) for infiltrating an anti-cuban terrorist organisation and passing evidence of their crimes onto the cuban goverment who handed it over to the FBI.

Are we counting the few thousand cubans who were killed when the US and exiled cubans tried to illegally invade the bay of pigs?
Are we talking about the 1000 odd captured exiles from that invasion, most of whom were sentenced to 30 years in prison?

As far as I know it is pretty difficult to question the government in cuba on certain policies without finding yourself in trouble with the law. I think it is possible to be sent to prison for being an activist that questions certain parts of the leadership but i'm not sure how far you have to go. Thats obviously a problem and is not something i support but as far as causes go some of the blame must also go to the constant economic attacks from the US, the constant threat of military attack, and the constant stream of propaganda being illegally dropped from aeroplanes and beamed in from florida via high powered radio transmitters. If it was your country you couldn't help but feel paranoid.

Cuba certainly has its problems but I don't think you can call castro a brutal dictator just because of casualties taken during what was essentially a civil war. Since then there has been a dramatic increase in the living standard of cubans (until US sanctions hit). Castro introduced a national health service in the first year of his government at a time when hardly anyone had access to health care. The service provides free health care for all cubans (something not even the US can boast). 2 Years later he introduced a literacy campaign that reduced illiteracy from 23% to 4% and introduced a system ensuring all children would be able to go to school. Thats not the actions of your average brutal dictator (such as the guy the US propped up before him).

Trying to claim that he is even in the same league as people like Mao or Stalin is ridiculous.

[Pelion]

im just really not sure what you are trying to say pelion.

The vast majority of cubans were far better off under castro than they were under batista.

Also the vast majority of cubans would be far better off if the US government stopped interfering in cuba.

[jyms]

And the other 9,999? (not taunting Will this time - I know nothing of Cuban history but was always under the impression Castro was fairly benign as dictators go)

Well, he *was* the leader of a guerilla movement that overthrew the older government. I'm not sure coups count, though.

Not up on my cuban history either. Just know that people will do obscenely dangerous life-threatening things to escape the place, so its gotta be pretty bad.

They don't want to leave Cuba as much as they want to enter America. They have a skewed version of what life would be like for them if they just get across that border.

[bikes]

And the other 9,999? (not taunting Will this time - I know nothing of Cuban history but was always under the impression Castro was fairly benign as dictators go)

Well, he *was* the leader of a guerilla movement that overthrew the older government. I'm not sure coups count, though.

Not up on my cuban history either. Just know that people will do obscenely dangerous life-threatening things to escape the place, so its gotta be pretty bad.

They don't want to leave Cuba as much as they want to enter America. They have a skewed version of what life would be like for them if they just get across that border.

Agreed, look at the Mexicans who risk take huge risks to get to America. Not saying that is bad in Mexico, but if they are willing to risk life and death to get here it shouldn't be so surprising that the Cubans are as well.

[will641]

how is the bay of pigs invasion illegal? please ellaborate.
the reason they did that was because the USSR had military bases, missles, etc. and also castro's agenda was to convert the central american and south american countries into communist states.
also i clearly said that i dont loathe him like i loathe mao or stalin.

and as far as castro > batista argument, i disagree. not to say that batista was good, because he was also just your standard thug dictator. but im pretty sure he didnt kill as many ppl as castro, and also he wouldve died sooner, and someone else wouldve taken over.

[shazbox]

hes responsible for 10's of thousands of deaths

which ones?

che guevara

lol che guevara was executed in bolivia by the CIA + Bolivian army. Thats hardly castros fault.

lololololol, ya i know. i just threw it out there to see if anybody noticed. thereby testing their knowledge.

and i agree with all the things i read that you have written so far.

im sure castro isnt that bad. most of it is just cold-war-era fear-spawned hatred.


and i also watched a big show on america trying to kill castro over and over again.

[shazbox]

and ya, batista was way way way waaaaay worse from what i understand.

castro did a lot of the country, and if he had to kill a few thousand people in the process, good job. aaahahah

no i dont really support the killing. but if you think about it, a lot of governments are responsible for a lot of deaths

[Pelion]

the reason they did that was because the USSR had military bases, missles, etc

Not until over a year later. And its not really surprising that they pointed some big guns at the US just after they had been invaded by them.

[will641]

hes responsible for 10's of thousands of deaths

which ones?

che guevara

lol che guevara was executed in bolivia by the CIA + Bolivian army. Thats hardly castros fault.

lololololol, ya i know. i just threw it out there to see if anybody noticed. thereby testing their knowledge.

nice cover up . although in all fairness, while there is no solid evidence, there has been some suggestions that castro set him up or something.

[pgil]

hes responsible for 10's of thousands of deaths

which ones?

che guevara

lol che guevara was executed in bolivia by the CIA + Bolivian army. Thats hardly castros fault.

lololololol, ya i know. i just threw it out there to see if anybody noticed. thereby testing their knowledge.

nice cover up . although in all fairness, while there is no solid evidence, there has been some suggestions that castro set him up or something.

i love it. "in all fairness, there is wild speculation that..." not exactly in all fairness.

It is estimated that over 20,000 people were murdered by the Batista regime in acts of political repression, most of whom were tortured.

he was in power from 52-58. quite the record in a short time frame

[Geanosssss]

meh

[Lukie]

Why does the US have sanctions against CUBA and not CHINA?
Dont they both have horrible human rights violations, both are Communist Country/dictatorships?

we only pick on the little guys

[biondino]

how is the bay of pigs invasion illegal?

Invading other sovereign countries is frowned upon, by and large. I know the Geneva Convention as well as I know Cuban history, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't go down well.

[will641]

hes responsible for 10's of thousands of deaths

which ones?

che guevara

lol che guevara was executed in bolivia by the CIA + Bolivian army. Thats hardly castros fault.

lololololol, ya i know. i just threw it out there to see if anybody noticed. thereby testing their knowledge.

nice cover up . although in all fairness, while there is no solid evidence, there has been some suggestions that castro set him up or something.

i love it. "in all fairness, there is wild speculation that..." not exactly in all fairness.

way to take what i said completely out of context pgil. what i was saying by "in all fairness" is that what he said wasnt just completely random bullshit. what, are we in a fucking court room now, so we can't say that there are people that believe that castro was involved? and explain how that isnt being fair. that is the definition of being fair.

[Pelion]

there are people who believe 9/11 was planned by the US government. That doesn't make it a sane theory.

[mcatdog]

Invading other sovereign countries is frowned upon, by and large. I know the Geneva Convention as well as I know Cuban history, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't go down well.

I think the idea of sovereignty is flawed if it tells us we're supposed to let dictators like Castro stay in power. Why should we respect the sovereignty of a dictatorship when they have no legitimate reason to be there in the first place? If the US could get rid of all the dictators in the world I'd want us to do it tomorrow. Now for a lot practical reasons, invasions and embargoes are rarely the best way to go about this, we can't just go around invading every country we don't like. But the idea that it's illegal for us to help an opposition group overthrow a dictator I think has its priorities all wrong.

PS: The Geneva Convention has to do with treatment of civilians and POW's during wartime, it doesn't have anything to do with whether the war is justified in the first place.

[euphoricism]

What does that have to do with anything?

Are you saying the fact that Castro was a murdering fuckhead is a "theory" ?

edit: aimed at pen obv

[will641]

yes let us stop these unnecessary invasions. why dont we just talk to them and, you know, work things out, i am sure they are willing to listen and willing to change their country into free speaking individuals. lol.

[mcatdog]

yes let us stop these unnecessary invasions. why dont we just talk to them and, you know, work things out, i am sure they are willing to listen and willing to change their country into free speaking individuals. lol.

It's worked dozens of times. How many countries have we turned into democracies by invading them? I can think of three (Germany, Japan, South Korea). Maybe I'm missing some, but either way it's a much shorter list.

Sure they'll ignore us if they think they can get away with it, but just because we don't invade, doesn't mean we have to let them get away with it. There's plenty of non-violent ways to hit them where it hurts. Just look at what Gandhi and Martin Luther King did, and there's a ton less famous examples of people who did the same thing. If only a few people have the courage to stand up against the system, they'll just get killed or thrown in jail, but if everyone rises up, there's nothing the government can do anymore.

[will641]

It is estimated that over 20,000 people were murdered by the Batista regime in acts of political repression, most of whom were tortured.

he was in power from 52-58. quite the record in a short time frame

also this is just wrong. batista orchestrated the coup in 1933 i think, and was elected president in 1940. however, he was one of the most powerful men in cuba from the time of the coup. so no, it is a bad record in a pretty long time frame. and at least when batista was in power the economy was doing well.

[pgil]

there are/have been so many worse people than castro, US backed people. I just don't get the extreme hatred of castro in the US.

from wikipedia. I don't really know cuban history, so just to enlighten us all:

Batista was the de facto military leader of Cuba from 1933 to 1940 and the de jure President of Cuba from 1940 to 1944 after having won election. After staging a successful coup in 1952, Batista ran unopposed in an election in 1954, and ruled the nation until handing over power on the last day of 1958.

I would like to point out that in order to take something out of context, the context of the comment must be removed. The quote had all of the context intact.

BTW, stating that "at least the economy was doing well" is, I don't know what it is really. Kind of like saying, you can kill as many people as you want, just make sure the stock market goes up. Especially since the reason the economy is the way it is now is because of US embargoes.

[will641]

BTW, stating that "at least the economy was doing well" is, I don't know what it is really. Kind of like saying, you can kill as many people as you want, just make sure the stock market goes up. Especially since the reason the economy is the way it is now is because of US embargoes.

well castro was killing/imprisoning as many people as he wanted, and drove the fucking economy into the ground, like any communist regime. its just what the end result of communism is. you have no point here.

there are/have been so many worse people than castro, US backed people. I just don't get the extreme hatred of castro in the US.

so you are saying we shouldnt be happy when a lesser evil is removed? if you dont understand the hatred of castro in the US, then why dont you read some history about it? i'm not going to justify my position by telling you about cuban history in this era. castro and che guevera were sons of bitches, and if you cant understand that after doing a little research, then you must be one of those far-left communist/terrorist sympathizers of sorts.