Durrr vs Hellmuth HU in NBC championships (vid now online)

[Numbr2intheWorld]

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/228251...65812#24065898

video is clubs section 2. watch whole video

[Numbr2intheWorld]

also watch section 3 where durrr officially challenges him

[bigspenda73]

ahahah yes

[Jack Sawyer]

ego vs ego

ego winnar

[AHiltz]

I would have said "Me sucky, sucky long time" and rubbed my nipples. Helmuth is suck a dick.

[gabe]

good post

[WildBobAA]

"learn to play heads up no limit"

hahahahah so awesome

[bikes]

OMG HAHAHA. "He played it terrible!"

[givememyleg]

yay

[kingnat]

Moneymaker v. Jerry Yang in Round of Spades... wait wut?

[chardrian]

they continued going at it in the next video.

[Seabass]

Ty for this.

[BankItDrew]

the link isn't working for me

[IowaSkinsFan]

I want to think Hellmuth is remotely smart. I'd like to think that, he's won the most WSOP bracelets out of anyone in the world. But jesus christ he is just so bad.

[martindcx1e]

the link isn't working for me

click another vid and then click back on it.

also, gabe kaplan ftw

[BankItDrew]

got it
thanks

[Fnord]

I want to think Hellmuth is remotely smart. I'd like to think that, he's won the most WSOP bracelets out of anyone in the world. But jesus christ he is just so bad.

He reads people well and has a strong tournament game build around getting chips without risking his stack. Skills that don't translate well outside of live tourney poker that pays to place.

[bigspenda73]

I remember loving Hellmuth when I first started watching/playing poker b/c he always got his money in good and seemed to only play strong hands. I wanted to be like that, I always prided myself on getting it in ahead (even if I dwindled my stack down to next to nothing).

It's funny, the more I learn about poker, the worse he becomes and the more I just cannot stand him, his play, and certainly his antics at the tables.

[bigspenda73]

I mean, lol, he acts like he "trapped" Durr with the quick l/rr. It was a total fucking cooler. Maybe if Durr shipped like AJo or T9s or something he'd be able to say he trapped him, but not with TT.

[meeloche]

I remember loving Hellmuth when I first started watching/playing poker b/c he always got his money in good and seemed to only play strong hands. I wanted to be like that, I always prided myself on getting it in ahead (even if I dwindled my stack down to next to nothing).

It's funny, the more I learn about poker, the worse he becomes and the more I just cannot stand him, his play, and certainly his antics at the tables.

I feel the exact same way.

He just takes it way too far. Even on some of the high stakes poker shows he'll berate someone for a completely standard hand. I do still enjoy some of his blowups only cause it makes him look like a complete idiot.

[martindcx1e]

Reporter: Are you guys gonna go play heads up somewhere else now?

Hellmuth: Well what happens if I go play him heads up and I get it all in with aces and he hits a ten again?

Reporter: That's poker right?

BWAHAHAHAHA

[martindcx1e]

also, durrr seems a bit odd amirite? is he american?

[Galapogos]

also, durrr seems a bit odd amirite? is he american?

Just a socially awkward kid I assume. Because he seems alright when they do the initial interview but then is kind of uncomfortable when attacked by Phil. Even though he obviously held his own and made Phil look like a dumbass, I'm sure he's still pretty uncomfortable in that spot. He does have a bit of a rain man thing going though doesn't he?

[will641]

also, durrr seems a bit odd amirite? is he american?

yeah he seemed weird to me too. he seemed kind of metro.

[JinxT4]

"That's why you lose money online."

"Pick your stakes Heads Up."

LOL. Idk who Durrr is exactly, but I like em after watchin that.

[aka_red]

durrr is a g. "l2p hu nl" lollersk8s

[kmind]

also, durrr seems a bit odd amirite? is he american?

yeah he seemed weird to me too. he seemed kind of metro.

Yeah, at times I wanted to say he was flat out homo, but I think he is just weird/uncomfortable.

[martindcx1e]

lol hellmuth got pwned by metro/gay rain man

[BankItDrew]

lol hellmuth got pwned by metro/gay rain man

lmao

[pantherhound]

durrr says it was a standard move just because its such a trivial hand that could have occurred under any line of thought at any stakes.

but realistically, what is cautious phil doing this with that is worse than TT so early? remember the type of player he is, his range includes way more stronger hands when he plays it like this. the commentator saying 'dwan doesn't have to put him on a top hand here' is dumb IMO, phil takes way more than 3 hands to get involved especially against a top internet guy he needs to figure out (or try to).

saying it was a cooler is wrong IMO, durrrr just didn't adjust to cautious phil.

[mcatdog]

durrr says it was a standard move just because its such a trivial hand that could have occurred under any line of thought at any stakes.

but realistically, what is cautious phil doing this with that is worse than TT so early? remember the type of player he is, his range includes way more stronger hands when he plays it like this. the commentator saying 'dwan doesn't have to put him on a top hand here' is dumb IMO, phil takes way more than 3 hands to get involved especially against a top internet guy he needs to figure out (or try to).

saying it was a cooler is wrong IMO, durrrr just didn't adjust to cautious phil.

So you are saying Hellmuth sucks really bad then?

[pocketfours]

saying it was a cooler is wrong IMO, durrrr just didn't adjust to cautious phil.

I agree. No way Phil would limp-raise in the beginning of the match without JJ+/AK. Durrr got outplayed. Ridiculous move to limp aces though.

[pantherhound]

durrr says it was a standard move just because its such a trivial hand that could have occurred under any line of thought at any stakes.

but realistically, what is cautious phil doing this with that is worse than TT so early? remember the type of player he is, his range includes way more stronger hands when he plays it like this. the commentator saying 'dwan doesn't have to put him on a top hand here' is dumb IMO, phil takes way more than 3 hands to get involved especially against a top internet guy he needs to figure out (or try to).

saying it was a cooler is wrong IMO, durrrr just didn't adjust to cautious phil.

So you are saying Hellmuth sucks really bad then?

Well it looks really bad not least because he's obv never balancing it but durrr should have known this, it's pretty fuckin obvious. he's happy to dismiss it as 'standard' and it may be online in certain scenerios but never here. I'm actually surprised that Dwan made such a stupid mistake on like hand 3, it's not difficult to get a feel for the sort of range Phil has here. how difficult can it be making this adjustment? It's like he just donks off his tournament regardless just because he perceives it to be a 'fundamentals' push when it's terrible.

Also I think Hellmuth should have given Dwan credit for being able to adjust faced with an obvious narrow range. With the ridiculous limp reraise he's basically banking on durrrr to stack off with a lot of worse hands since durrr isn't flat calling. it just so happened durrr couldnt adjust to the most basic problem, so they both played it terrible.

[AHiltz]

Helmuth just got finished saying that he always limps his button, blah, blah. Durrr could have thought that Phil was testing the waters. Even still, TT heads up there is such a strong hand.

[bigspenda73]

saying it was a cooler is wrong IMO, durrrr just didn't adjust to cautious phil.

I agree. No way Phil would limp-raise in the beginning of the match without JJ+/AK. Durrr got outplayed. Ridiculous move to limp aces though.

lol no wai, he says in the beginning of the match he almost never raises on the button. Also, it's the 3rd hand and Durrr raised up his first limp, so Phil's rr'ing range has to be wider than just JJ+, AK.

[Thunder]

At the risk of being flamed for daring to question a top online player. I have just watched the clash and cannot believe how Dwan can legislate his play. As a level 0 thinker, my thoughts are:

1) Raising all in with pocket 10s, in the 3rd hand is just ludicrous. Either he's pushing Phil out of the pot and not maximising the value of his hand or he's getting called. Now I can't see Phil calling an all in, just 3 hands in, with a worse hand than 10 10. Even if Dwan puts him on 2 overcards, he's on a coin flip. JJ+ though and he's a massve dog. So to me, I can't see how Dwan sees that as a good play. Maybe if one was uber short stacked but not 3 hands in.

That's the kind of play I expect in the donkaments I frequent.


2) He didn't seem to read PH at all, which is inexcusable for a multi millionaire pro because there are hours and hours of Phil that he must have seen.

3) And that appears to be a major flaw that seperates online poker from live poker. The top online players are heavily maths based - as Dwan tried to infer with his "would you call 3100?" line - but live poker is maths and more. Though I cannot see how pushing with 10s so early is good play, Dwan seems to enshrined purely in the maths aspect and totally oblivious to the fact that you're playing people and not just the probabilities of hand ranges.


However........

Of more interest to me is Dwan's reaction and body language throughout. I may not be a good poker player but my living is made up of reading body language to an acute level, including muscle tone andcolourisation, and at this I am excellent. From what I observe, Dwan is completely at odds with what he is actually saying.

Like any tell, there may be reasons as to why people react a certain way but 95% of the time, the traditional reads of body language hold true. And so I will have to align to them based on just one video of Dwan and no insight into him as a person.

Dwan gets prickly when Hellmuth calls his play and goes into defence mode. He admitted he sucked out yet still goes uber defensive to justify his play. Quite a contradiction. He then refuses to make eye contact with Phil and this is indicative of someone who is in the wrong and/or is being deceitful. Which is exactly what's going on if he has been caught with his pants down on TV, running tens into aces.

His muscle tone contracts and his shoulders compact, which is also in contrast to the physiology when someone believes they are in the right. Physically he's 'locking down'.

If he truly believed he made a standard play then he wouldn't feel so compelled to insta challenge Phil to a HU match. He's on the defensive again and, coupled with his body language and actions is not providing congruence with his words.

And as he admitted he sucked out, there would still be no reason to challenge to a HU. It's all indicative of an individual who wants to atone for an error. All in all, he becomes overtly defensive, which is telling enough. The fact that he does so after admitting he sucked out is even more so.

[bigspenda73]

yea, you shouldn't have tried

[boost]

lol@the donks saying dwan made a terrible play.

JJ+ AK, thats phils range? LMAO.

You do realize that folding TT there is just terrible right? Calling is terrible as well. And reraising to anything but all in commits you.

[Thunder]

1) I do realise folding 10 10 is terrible. Had he not reraised all in he wouldn't be in the dire situation that he was. Hence I feel that to reraise all in, 3 hands in when both are presumably deep stacked, is not a good play.

2) I don't know why calling the reraise is bad, but then again I am a noob. From what I understand, pushing will either elicit a fold or a call and if he's called, he's put his entire tourney on a coin flip at best and all but out at worst. Maybe you can enlighten me.

3) I freely admitted I may well be totally wrong about the poker. My main points were about Dwan's incongruency and body language.

[spoonitnow]

lol that was awesome

[Lukie]

who cares whether it was a good play or not. at best it was standard, at worst it was one poorly played hand.

durrr definitely has a big edge against helmuth, period.

[pantherhound]

agreed. i would definitely want to see their HU matches.

[wesrman]

I remember loving Hellmuth when I first started watching/playing poker b/c he always got his money in good and seemed to only play strong hands. I wanted to be like that, I always prided myself on getting it in ahead (even if I dwindled my stack down to next to nothing).

It's funny, the more I learn about poker, the worse he becomes and the more I just cannot stand him, his play, and certainly his antics at the tables.

I was thinking the same thing as i watched the video.

[IowaSkinsFan]

who cares whether it was a good play or not. at best it was standard, at worst it was one poorly played hand.

durrr definitely has a big edge against helmuth, period.

^^^^^

[boost]

who cares whether it was a good play or not. at best it was standard, at worst it was one poorly played hand.

durrr definitely has a big edge against helmuth, period.

^^^^^

ya, too much strategy in the commune imo.

[Jack Sawyer]

tnx for bumping this

i wanted to watch the vids again, but was too lazy to search for this thread myself.

so yeah, thanks. carry on now

[bikes]

I had forgotten how great this was. Awesome bump

[dev]

so... did they ever play? can we see it on ppv please?!

[Galapogos]

so... did they ever play? can we see it on ppv please?!

No, Hellmuth threw out a bunch of dumb stipulations IIRC and Durrrr basically said fuck it.

[nutsinho]

who cares whether it was a good play or not. at best it was standard, at worst it was one poorly played hand.

durrr definitely has a big edge against helmuth, period.

^^^^^

obv

[EzDuzIt]

lol this video was awesome. "would you have put in 3100 phil?"

[boost]

lol this video was awesome. "would you have put in 3100 phil?"

ya that was the best line, so awesome.

[will641]

durrrrr's mannerisms are so annoying.

[pankfish]

Durr isn't very charismatic. Just sayin..

[IowaSkinsFan]

Durr: "If I raised everytime you limped it wouldn't be too hard for you."

PH: "Yeah... Cause I limp most of the time."

lol

[will641]

i <3 phil. hes kind of like the rasheed wallace (except not nearly as bad ass) of the poker world. they both complain endlessly about everything that doesnt go their way.

[boost]

Durr: "If I raised everytime you limped it wouldn't be too hard for you."

PH: "Yeah... Cause I limp most of the time."

lol

Im pretty sure he said "If I raised everytime you limped would it be too hard for you?"

like playing into his retardedness since hes complaining about the way he plays instead of adjusting.

[wesrman]

i <3 phil. hes kind of like the rasheed wallace (except not nearly as bad ass) of the poker world. they both piss and moan endlessly like little bitches about everything that doesnt go their way.

FYP. (Im a Bull's fan obv)

[Fnord]

So you are saying Hellmuth sucks really bad then?

Sort of.

Phil's style is to pot control and save chips for low risk oportunities to bully weak players. Inducing spewtastic bluffs out of very aggressive players is another pretty key part of his game and he will go light if he really has to when he knows the other guy's range is full of crap.

When it works, it's pretty incredible to see him build a stack without ever really having to put all his chips into the center.

In an multiple pay-out MTT the approach has a lot of merit. In other formats (HU, cash, winner take all, etc.), he's giving up waaayyyy too much.

Also, some of the big winners in live poker are really good people readers with some pretty big technical leaks. All it takes to make a lot of money at poker is to find someone worse than you who will play for as much money as you can afford to play for.

[dalecooper]

^ What Fnord said. It's pretty fashionable to bag on Hellmuth now and he definitely has weaknesses in his all-around game, but as a tournament player (especially deep stacked MTTs) he's very good. As a heads-up player he leaves a lot to be desired - and a lot of chips on the table.

I wouldn't be that happy to be Dwan here though. Hellmuth doesn't 3-bet bluff much (at least not in the zillions of hands I've seen him play on TV, even in prior heads up matches) and doesn't 3-bet lower pairs either, so his range here is mostly strong with a tiny sliver of air underneath. I understand boost's point about folding being bad and everything else committing you, but from another point of view, he's only put in a small portion of his stack - maybe against this particular opponent he shouldn't be so eager to accelerate to the finish line. Also it may matter (or maybe not, to him) that this is a live tournament format and not online or a cash game, where the next game is a mouseclick/rebuy away.

[Andrew]

So you are saying Hellmuth sucks really bad then?

Sort of.

Phil's style is to pot control and save chips for low risk oportunities to bully weak players. Inducing spewtastic bluffs out of very aggressive players is another pretty key part of his game and he will go light if he really has to when he knows the other guy's range is full of crap.

When it works, it's pretty incredible to see him build a stack without ever really having to put all his chips into the center.

In an multiple pay-out MTT the approach has a lot of merit. In other formats (HU, cash, winner take all, etc.), he's giving up waaayyyy too much.

Also, some of the big winners in live poker are really good people readers with some pretty big technical leaks. All it takes to make a lot of money at poker is to find someone worse than you who will play for as much money as you can afford to play for.

I love this breakdown of Phil's game. Fnord, do you think that Phil has another gear in his game that we just don't see him use? There's a few of the pros who it does "appear" only have one major style and they stick to it. Have you seen anything in Phil's game to show that he can get out of this general style of his if he wanted to? It just appears that he doesn't like to deviate from the way he plays even if it's costing him a bunch of money/sending him ranting.

[EzDuzIt]

no, he sucks. just leave it at that.

[givememyleg]

but he has reading abilities

[will641]

but he has reading abilities

hes made over $20 million off of his ability to read opps!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kHkdjmssus

[Fnord]

hes made over $20 million off of his ability to market himself and make for better TV than people who play poker at the highest levels

FYP

[jackvance]

It was kinda weird to see Durr talk smack but his body language was really awkward.. it'd piss anyone off I can imagine. He couldn't even look Phil in the eye?..

Kinda reminds me a bit of seeing Aba live. They'd have to be at a disadvantage live if they can't manage their composure properly and pay close attention to subtle details in the other person's body language, or am I seeing this wrong..

[dalecooper]

^ Yeah, that was weird.

I also have to say the whole "any stakes, any time" thing is not nearly as balla as he thinks it is. 'tards at microstakes use the same line any time they lose a big pot - it's the poker equivalent of threatening to beat somebody up in an internet message board. I have no doubt he could actually back it up, mind you - but it loses its power by association with all the monkeys who throw it out when they've already lost their shirt and their dignity. When people say that to me, I laugh at them.

[Jack Sawyer]

^ Yeah, that was weird.

I also have to say the whole "any stakes, any time" thing is not nearly as balla as he thinks it is. 'tards at microstakes use the same line any time they lose a big pot - it's the poker equivalent of threatening to beat somebody up in an internet message board. I have no doubt he could actually back it up, mind you - but it loses its power by association with all the monkeys who throw it out when they've already lost their shirt and their dignity. When people say that to me, I shiver and kindly ask them as cowardly as I possibly can, "when and where"?

FYP

[Jack Sawyer]

he did look weird though, like, undescribably weird

a proper live player will probably pwn him HU, as in real, live, HU cash, he leaks tells like he's on meth

[will641]

he did look weird though, like, undescribably weird

a proper live player will probably pwn him HU, as in real, live, HU cash, he leaks tells like he's on meth

yeah he repeatedly does this weird thing with his head where looks up to the side and like, puckers his lips together. idk, gay imo.

[boost]

you guys are retards imo.

You dont have to be the unibomber or chris furguson and hide under a hood or sunglasses/hat/hair to be good at live poker. You can be more livid than a statue and not be giving off tells. Bet timing/sizing are still way more important. It is increadibly rare that youll pick up on a specific live tell.

and dale, what youre saying just doenst make sense. Its like rappers that have hollow "ice" with fake diamonds, they are a joke and whatever. But really having 100k in jewels on your neck is definitely balla. So likewise, when you really intend to and are capable of backing up the challenge, then it is indeed ballas.

[dalecooper]

and dale, what youre saying just doenst make sense. Its like rappers that have hollow "ice" with fake diamonds, they are a joke and whatever. But really having 100k in jewels on your neck is definitely balla. So likewise, when you really intend to and are capable of backing up the challenge, then it is indeed ballas.

Actually I think they're all fucking ridiculous. I could give a shit about pissing matches or dick-measuring contests. I play poker to make money, not to prove to myself and the universe that I'm a WINNAR - that's an utterly juvenile mindset that creates way more net losers than net winners. People like that can't bear to lose and tilt when they do; and they care more about crushing an opponent than about crushing the game, so they make stupid decisions and leak money.

So yeah. This guy may be "balla" as hell for all I know, but his general dick-swinging is no more smart or mature than Mt. St. Hellmuth erupting over a completely standard bad beat. As far as I'm concerned they both came off like retards here. And I feel exactly the same about anybody who wears tons of ice to prove how rich he is - whether it's fake or real, he already fuckin' lost.

Bet timing/sizing are still way more important. It is increadibly rare that youll pick up on a specific live tell.

I think most people who have played poker for a while (and didn't just finish watching "Rounders" for the first time) know that. But when a guy is twitchy and gives off a lot of seemingly involuntary eye rolls and smirks, those are pretty obvious tells (...probably). Get off his junk, the guy's not god just because he's good at online poker.

[Galapogos]

So yeah. This guy may be "balla" as hell for all I know, but his general dick-swinging is no more smart or mature than Mt. St. Hellmuth erupting over a completely standard bad beat.

This likely isn't dick-swinging in Durrrr's case though. I'm sure he views Hellmuth as a legitimate mark in the game and saw a +EV opportunity to get him to agree to a HU match where he would have a large edge. I'm sure Hellmuth would be a much softer opponent than the ones Durrrr normally goes up against.

[dalecooper]

It came off very defensive to me. He probably would view Hellmuth as a mark (and rightly so - heads up for cash is not remotely Phil's game, he'd probably get pwned), but in context it looks a lot like "Oh, you're questioning me? Well ANY TIME ANY STAKES, PUNK! I'LL SMITE YOU GOOD!"

It's silliness. Unless of course he's levelling Phil (and by extension, me) and thinking the whole time he can get into a good game by challenging the guy's ego. Which is plausible. But it doesn't stop him looking like a douche on TV.

[Pythonic]

Hellmuth should be happy that he was able to get his AA all in preflop against this queer/fag. Then he berates his opponent's play to insult him further. Well played Phil, you're still #1 in my book.