200nl AKo 300bb deep

[Marshall28]

It's 3 handed, villain is a bad player running something like 34/19/.9
There's a bunch of problems on this turn. If I bet/call I'm basically never getting it in ahead, however, I don't think I can ever check. Reason is I would be bluffing this turn w/ 100% of my range, plus, villain was just such a weak player and AcKo is basically near the very top of my range. I don't think hes capable of floating the flop to bluff the turn, and I don't think he's raising all his monsters on the flop (like he should be). Just not quite sure what to do.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (3 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($595.75)
SB ($201)
Hero ($887.60)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, A.
Button raises to $7, 1 fold, Hero raises to $27, Button calls $20.

Flop: ($55) 8, 2, J (2 players)
Hero bets $42, Button calls $42.

Turn: ($139) A (2 players)
Hero ....

[Fnord]

It's 3 handed, villain is a bad player

Reason is I would be bluffing this turn w/ 100% of my range

Throw balance out the window and make whatever play you think makes you the most money here.

[freechus9]

I agree. I like c/c here because if he bets we can assess our implied odds for the flush, and if he checks, well, we probably have the best hand then.

[Fnord]

I like c/c here.

I would bet less on the flop and fire again. Even as played I'm firing again barring a more detailed read. Probably not a very big bet though, enough for him to call down with god-knows-what.

[Marshall28]

how about assuming hes a good player, what do u think then? ... its a far more interesting question.

also, i kinda think a check call is more or less a reverse implied odds play. if i dont make a flush im put to a sick decision on the river quite often and if i do, its not likely i get another dime out of him.

[Marshall28]

how does this not get more discussion?

[Genitruc]

I've just gotten through the 1st 2 sentences but before going any further, I'd suggest you forget worrying about your own frequencies vs a bad player

[Genitruc]

ok just read the hand and I'd say that I'd we willing to get it in for 1 million BB's on this turn and expect it to be profitable vs this player

also gotta bet for vaaaaaallllllluuuuuuuuuuuuueeeeeeeee

Do you think he EVER folds QcQx?

[Genitruc]

Marshall I think it's not getting a ton of discussion because

-if he's a bad player, you simply have to bet for value and to build a pot vs a hand like QcQx or KcKx that didn't raise the flop (going off your read)

-if he's a good player, you simply have the motherfucking nuts so it's more a question of extracting maximum value than worrying about getting bluffed off the best hand or incorrectly putting more money in

[Marshall28]

if i bet and get raised, basically im never getting it in good, and probably have about 25% equity against his range if I'm lucky, which I would include small flushes, sets, and 2pr hands. does that make it a bet/fold? or does that turn it into a check?

against a good player who knows im agro, he could be floating the flop, but he could also be letting me hang myself by flatting the top of his range and probably raising the weaker parts of my range, in which case, is it still a bet/call? i dunno

[freechus9]

Given your read it doesn't seem like he raises that often anyway, so shouldn't we be less concerned about it?

[Marshall28]

ok so i bet ~115 and he jammed. now what?

[will641]

gross. i doubt hes bluffing ever here for this much money. i would bet smaller though, and i think you have to fold.

[will641]

and freechus wtf at biggest sig evar?

[Galapogos]

I think you have to fold. This guy's not going to jam air it seems going by his stats alone. And in the good player scenario, it would be kind of a dumb play for him to jam there with a hand. But that's a hell of an expensive bluff so I guess you just have to give him credit. I do think bet/bet/bet is the best line though for the reasons mentioned above.

[Fnord]

ok so i bet ~115 and he jammed. now what?

Hate life and fold.

Ni Han.

[Marshall28]

ok so we are sure b/f is the best line? what about c/c? what about c/raiseallin?

[freechus9]

ok so we are sure b/f is the best line? what about c/c? what about c/raiseallin?

Well, as you said, c/c sucks because its a pretty clear ROI situation (that I now see). C/rai doesn't seem like a bad play at all just because we might be getting it in +EV. Instead of crai I like a bet/3betAI. However you'd need to bet a lot smaller for this to work.

[freechus9]

And if my sig is smaller you cant read the text, which is the whole point. Deal w it

[IowaSkinsFan]

Wow wtf is going on he raised the turn? I definetely bet turn guess u have to fold though.

[Renton]

rpetty trivial bet fold turn, c/c seems pretty bad vs a donk

[Marshall28]

i know i posted this hand like a bunch of days ago, but i posted it on liquidpoker also and got a really good response from rekrul, i thought everybody might benefit from reading it, it's posted below....


"the fact that you have Ac makes checking a more viable option in my opinion

lots of bad advice in this thread

if he has you beat, you save money
you can trap and get $ out of floats very easily and safely
if you do check call and hit a club on the river your hand looks very much like you just had a naked ace so he will fire any club almost and bluffs on the river both of which you can checkraise for max value instead of betting out

these factors weigh far more heavily in this situation 300 bb's deep than the value you may lose against decent hands from checking

bet calling is just bad and extremely marginal unless you've been completely running the guy over and making his life miserable

and no, the fact that you *should* normally be betting this turn with your entire range doesn't mean you should here

you don't have to follow rules, just like you don't *have* to continuation bet all dry flops, plus you have to remember people are stupid and don't think about this stuff anyways usually

i mean you're usually 3 barrelling this board with your entire range because its very very very likely you're getting a fold on either the turn or the river

so in this situation if you bet you're most likely getting a fold from worse hands (very very likely) and getting it in bad against made hands (people will never bluff or semi bluff you in this spot especially 300 bb's deep almost) and you're losing all the potential value u lose from trapping floats

fuck my life why did i just post this stuff"

[nutsinho]

newsflash: rekrul isnt actually good at poker anymore. however this is GREAT advice.

[Renton]

I think that advice is pretty good, but i think it falls a part when we are dealing with a PASSIVE DONK who prob isn't bluffing when we check this turn, and if the turn goes check check he isn't bluffing the river. His passive donkitude how ever is great for calling us down with worse hands and draws. His passive donkitude also allows us to easily bet fold this turn without feeling exploited at all.

[Halv]

if you do check call and hit a club on the river your hand looks very much like you just had a naked ace so he will fire any club almost and bluffs on the river

I don't think this is true either vs a passive guy. b/f turn, b/f non-club rivers if he flats, yeah?

[Genitruc]

ya rekrul´s post is great if you re playing vs holl or something

[Marshall28]

my bad, i didnt mention that when i psoted it on LP i said my opponent was a tough tricky player.

[Marshall28]

newsflash: rekrul isnt actually good at poker anymore. however this is GREAT advice.

does this have something to do w/ why u dont think hse good at poker anymore????


http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ht=attn+raptor
(4:51:18 PM): then read my posts on page 21

[nutsinho]

i think hes not good at poker anymore because he barely plays online poker anymore afaik. Obviously, there are a lot of people I dont think are very good at poker but I don't make a point of saying it because they don't come across as arrogant jerks in every post they make on interweb forums that I have ever read. His post in this thread you mention is one of many of his that I have found to be aggressively retarded. I feel like you are only bringing up this thread however to create a stir since it happened quite a while ago now and all conflicts relevant to it are basically no longer existent.