Cowboys turn g00t

[Fnord]

$5/$10 $500 buy-in live near LA. Biggest game in the room.
$500 effective on this hand. Opponent just sat down so no image, read, etc.

2 limpers, I raise to $60 with , new guy calls out of the blinds, limpers fold.

~$140 in the pot, $440 behind.
:Js:
BB checks, I bet $100, BB calls

~$240 in the pot, $340 behind.

BB donks out $150 without any song or dance...

[d0zer]

I hate that situation so much I probably just curl up in the fetal position and start sobbing.

[Fnord]

Yeah, I also thought he might have a nine.

[d0zer]

Yeah, I also thought he might have a nine.

If it was just the nine I might just start sucking on my thumb, but with the flush draw coming in also... yikes. Just doesn't seem like many villains do that with a jack when they see their hand getting worse.

A station's usually running a passive line here with a jack. I suppose a trixy player'll see that turn as a great card to bluff here, but why not go for the c/r bluff, and are we really willing to gamble that this unknown is capable of such a line? And is he really calling the flop waiting to bluff the turn with air?

God I hate to fold kings as an overpair live but I can't see you being ahead here often enough. I dunno, I mean you do see a jack take this line occasionally from bad players who 'slowplayed' their big jack on the flop and have to mindlessly follow up regardless of what comes in on the turn, but that doesn't really seem like the norm.

Of course I don't really know how these 5/10 live games play, so correct me if I'm way off base with any of this 'monsters under the bed' thinking of mine.

I suppose it's possible that he has or or something like that and feels the turn improved his hand enough to warrant a bet

In the moment I probably call, call the inevitable river bet & cry when he flips a flush/trips, but ... maybe fold is goot?

[Fnord]

Why not just stick it in if we're not folding. Can't think of a hand he'd fold.

[d0zer]

Why not just stick it in if we're not folding. Can't think of a hand he'd fold.

I said "in the moment". I don't make good decisions in the moment, and wouldn't condone any such tom foolery my brain concocts in said 'moments'.

Did you shove?

[Fnord]

Did you shove?

Yes, although I think it's suicide in most Vegas games.

[d0zer]

Did you shove?

Yes, although I think it's suicide in most Vegas games.

yer LA games are a whole lot softer generally than vegas?

[Fnord]

yer LA games are a whole lot softer generally than vegas?

Different. Hands don't generally play as deep for starters. Also the shallow money tends to lead to a lot of "opps, I'm committed."

Most of the players aren't nearly as aggro as they should be pre-flop, don't build pots with the right kind of hands, play too much OOP (LDO) and try to get the game to play deeper via limping and under-betting the pot.

While they're trying to play Vegas deepish NLHE, I just jamm the pot with KQ+/TT+/JTs+, loosen up a bit on the button and never fold top pair after a raise.

It's like... because you're not deep stacked aren't overpairs/TPTK the hands we want to play hard?

[BankItDrew]

i'm gonna guess a couple of red aces but i'm still shoving in this spot.

[Renton]

yeah i mean fold

[pokerfan]

this line looks like AsJx, QsQx or even TsTx. SPR of about 3 was really low enough. So if you decided to commit postflop with overpairs and got his weaker range right, just be happy to stick with your game plan regardless..

[Renton]

this line looks like AsJx, QsQx or even TsTx. SPR(around 3) is really low enough. So if you decided to commit postflop with overpairs, just be happy to stick with your game plan..

who gives a shit what our spr is if our hand is no good

also even if he has all of those hands 100% of the time we are prob still way behind his range anyways

in poker sometimes you have to fold what is often the best hand. This is one of those times.

[pokerfan]

this line looks like AsJx, QsQx or even TsTx. SPR(around 3) is really low enough. So if you decided to commit postflop with overpairs, just be happy to stick with your game plan..

who gives a shit what our spr is if our hand is no good

also even if he has all of those hands 100% of the time we are prob still way behind his range anyways

in poker sometimes you have to fold what is often the best hand. This is one of those times.

i mean donk bet on the turn usually means weak holdings in live games unless he was a straightforward passive player.

[d0zer]

Without a read it seems like this is just gamb0ling on what kind of a player he is.

Fnord was feelin' lucky (punk).

My curiosity needs results on this, but I can wait if more feedback from the 'more competent than I' crowd is needed.

[Renton]

this line looks like AsJx, QsQx or even TsTx. SPR of about 3 is really low enough. So if you decided to commit postflop with overpairs and got his range right, just be happy to stick with your game plan regardless..

im sorry but i have to slander your post some more, its driving me nuts.

you can't have a predetermined plan preflop to stack off on any and every texture vs any line vs any player if you flop an overpair. Clearly this turn is new and valuable information, and clearly we are faced with a fairly tough choice, a much tougher choice than we would have been faced with on a blank.

fwiw whenever someone says "if you are make X play on Y street, then you must make Z play on Y+1 street no matter what," they are completely full of shit

your post is incredibly telling of large leaks in both your thought process and your game. i hope this helped you out, and i didn't come across as a huge dick or anything.

[Muzzard]

this line looks like AsJx, QsQx or even TsTx. SPR of about 3 is really low enough. So if you decided to commit postflop with overpairs and got his range right, just be happy to stick with your game plan regardless..

im sorry but i have to slander your post some more, its driving me nuts.

you can't have a predetermined plan preflop to stack off on any and every texture vs any line vs any player if you flop an overpair. Clearly this turn is new and valuable information, and clearly we are faced with a fairly tough choice, a much tougher choice than we would have been faced with on a blank.

fwiw whenever someone says "if you are make X play on Y street, then you must make Z play on Y+1 street no matter what," they are completely full of shit

your post is incredibly telling of large leaks in both your thought process and your game. i hope this helped you out, and i didn't come across as a huge dick or anything.

+1

[Renton]

Here's an anecdote about predetermined plans.


My first coach was someone most of you probably aren't familiar with, but he's been playing a long time and played 10/20 with bldswttrs et al on partypoker back in the day. It was our first or second session, I don't remember, but this hand came up.

Aggressive player opened MP, and I 3-bet the button with KQo and he called. My tentative plan was to stack off on any top pair if he c/r the flop, and be pretty happy about it.

Sure enough, the flop came Qxx rainbow, and i bet. He insta checkraised all in for 100bb. According to my plan, I should call the shove obviously. But my plan didn't factor in the scenario of him insta-overbet jamming. I was about to call and coach was like "no you should fold. It looks like he planned a c/r from preflop, so he probably just has KK/AA." And we did, and it was most likely the correct play.

[pokerfan]

i'm not saying that we should commit with overpairs automatically when SPR is pretty low. In this particular hand, if i figure there's at least 38% chance i have the best hand, i 'd stick with my commitment plan i make preflop/flop. I played lots of 1/2 nl live games, this turn donk line into pfr doesnt really mean stronger hands than our KK. However, I'm still not qualified to make any comments about 5-10NL games :P

[MehFU]

the part of ur logic i dont understand here poker fan is that if you think you are 38% chance with the best hand here why are u ever not calling (pot odds + over pair), and hoping the river drops a non spade and hopefully a blank such as a 5 and calling off the river.

u cant shove reasons are as follows:
more often than not the guy has you beat, either with some sort of flush (Ax or a 9).
the one thing you can rely on here is that you are beat. the guy sat down and has no reads on you whatsoever, and you likewise. the bet size here either commits you to a call call line or a shove back and he calls. u are stuck, your chips are going in in any realistic situation and you dont have any control. my method here would be to count my chips very graphically as tho im going to shove and see what he does, any sign of a a "sigh" or any sort of pretend weakness FOLDING.

i would really grill this fucker for a good 3 minutes or so until he cracks, ask questions, count ur chips, ask for the pot to be counted, ask him if he has a 9, u can use several darren brown tricks here to find out his hand. ask him a yes no question a single blink is usually a yes and a double blink and glance away is a no.

personally i think he either has a nine or black aces, no one bets out with the worst hand because they know that 5050 they get shoved on.

[pgil]

the part of ur logic i dont understand here poker fan is that if you think you are 38% chance with the best hand here why are u ever not calling (pot odds + over pair), and hoping the river drops a non spade and hopefully a blank such as a 5 and calling off the river.

if you are going to continue with the hand, you should put it in now. there are a lot of rivers that are going to be bad, either because we don't want to see them, or because opp doesn't want to see them, so if you think you are ahead (or ahead enough of the time) then putting the rest in on the turn seems to be the best play. Any hand that was putting more in on the river will call the turn push, plus some hands that might have check-folded the river will call the turn push. there is too much hoping for a nice river card in your line, and river cards tend to like to mix up their play, almost randomize it, so you can't get a good read on them.

As is, I too probably dislike it, but push. I expect a lot of J's that were slowplaying the flop, but are now a little scared of the way the board is coming out, some 9's and flushes, but also some draws (including combo draws of the QT with 1 spade variety). If I am wrong, I just hit a K on the river. bingo bango, easy game.

[Fnord]

i would really grill this fucker for a good 3 minutes or so until he cracks, ask questions, count ur chips, ask for the pot to be counted, ask him if he has a 9, u can use several darren brown tricks here to find out his hand. ask him a yes no question a single blink is usually a yes and a double blink and glance away is a no.

Some idiots will crack, tell you to fold and even show you a better hand. Against anyone who cares about the game much at all, you're getting nothing of value after the initial unguarded reactions.

[MehFU]

fair enough the scare cards are a super bad part of the hand, however i dont think that u can shove here as even with the jack and any spade kicker its an auto cry call, i personally dont understand a shove here given that u dont have the "best", read most likey draw, the spade flush.

is villian ever folding to a shove?
this is exactly the sort of OOP shut out bet that the nine or a pair of black aces wants to do.

im pretty much HATE folding and pin this guy as a fish and wait until shown otherwise.

id then wait till later then snap him in two with a set on a rainbow board when i cbet (fast play trips and he trys donkey betting again on the turn into my aggression).

reasoning being that he thinks he can push people off hands with a donkey turn bet which is rarely a good play.

ur also looking to keep 340 behind which is almost 3/4 of a full stack which is plenty of room to play with, 30 bbs deep.

[MehFU]

agreed fnord.

an example is that i was playing against a really bad player headsup live in a home game the other day. i raise pre ace jack c bet flop, KK9, another 9 on turn. check check.
an 8 his the river and he gos at me for the rest of his stack for about 15 chips, i have about 30 behind.

i have ace hi. im like BUH? he has NEVER moved in at me before hes always played super passive. i grill for a good 3 or 4 minutes.

he gives off all these really funny signals, tapping his fingers twiddling his thumbs all sorts of signals that if i didnt know him to be a complete river junkie id put him on 3rd or 4th nuts.

i conclude that his play is out of character, and if my read is wrong them im wrong at its only like 5 pounds, (we are playing sng headsup)

i think he has total air and am proved right when he shows me 83o for a paired river 8!!!!!!! i shit u not.

the weirdest thing was he thought he had the best hand!! i had to explain to him that hes kicker was the 8 and that my ace beat him....

[Fnord]

id then wait till later

Big pot already, not waiting for a hand that may never come.

[Fnord]

Results: I shoved, river blanked.

"You got the flush?"
*shakes head*
*I table my Kings*
*he mucks*

Lots of mixed feelings on my play here. Certainly if I put him on a tighter range I'm folding to his turn donk. I thought I could discount most of his stronger holdings with the way he played the hand. Also, HU to the flop tends to widen post-flop ranges.

[pokerfan]

fair enough the scare cards are a super bad part of the hand, however i dont think that u can shove here as even with the jack and any spade kicker its an auto cry call,

Its either a shove(commitment) or fold to maximize. I push this all day in 1/2 live games unless i have a solid read that the guy who donk bet a little more than half pot is both trustful and predictable. Fortunately, most live 1-2/2-5 NL players dont even know what they are doing and rarely pay attention to effective stack size.[/b]

[MehFU]

oh my he mucked?

he had a jack or a pair of queens.....or mebbe QJ.

that is a really sick result. i love the fact that this was a REAL DONKEY BET!

so basically you shoved playing read lotto and came out smelling of roses looking like a pro player.

did he do anything real dumb later?

[d0zer]

You're my hero Fnord

[MehFU]

this is tru i had a pretty similar situation when a player lost their head and completely lost track of the math of the call.
i limp late with 89d flopped kd3dTd. all limped pot, i bet pot. 2 calls. turn comes Ac. i bet 25 (slight over bet by about 8 chips) at this point and here is the crucial part of the hand, i have 14 pounds in chips behind, was playing a suited connector strategy with all pairs (depending on relative stack size to a preflop raise).

so he takes a good 3 mins to call, i coax he mis reads and calls, he did question whether to raise (i wish). river comes Ah i shove my last in he CALLS!! i show flopped flush, he mucks then mutters something about another diamond coming....

i stove the hand later to realise that because 6 are gone he has a 14% chance of winning with the call and would require another £70 ish behind in my stack to pay off this call because the pot was about 45 and the call was 25 into 45.

he broke several key rules and the worst was the effective stack screw up. oh yeh and they guy was a total fish/maniac.