Kings vs rivershove

[BigPapi]

This was at one of the 50NL tables and villain had sat down like 15 or 20 hands before according to hud, hadn't seen him do anything weird or out of line. Stats implied he called loose (30-10 or something, but meh 20-ish hands). Still the fact that he didnt rebuy (or had bought in full) and the smallish sample made me think he wasnt very good.

stacks:
Villain: 36$
Hero: 70$

Villain 2: limps
Hero: raises to 2.25$
Villain in BB calls. Villain 2 calls

Flop:
Villains check, I bet 4.5$, Villain calls, other folds.

Turn
Villain checks, I bet 11$ ( I do this a lot on turns which show a higher card then the flop.). Villains thinks a bit and calls

River:
Villain shoves for 18.25$, hero...


comments on turn & river please, though river was pretty easy I think.

[minSim]

I'd bet flop a bit bigger.
I like your turn bet, villain might have hit a combo draw, might call with JT or a gutshot and might call with Qx.
I don't think checking through gives you a lot more value from Qx on the river and giving free cards isn't great.

River's an easy fold ofcourse.

[BigPapi]

I might have bet flop 5$ but I knew it was 11 and 18 on later streets and the hand is from memory or would you bet close to pot on flop (i hardly do that on flop)

yeah folded river.

[bjsaust]

Fascinating use of the A to bluff with your Ks.

I bet 11$ ( I do this a lot on turns which show a higher card then the flop.).

This seems like a plan to use when you've had a c-bet floated and you think you have the 2nd best hand and want him to fold his weak pair. Here we dont want him to fold his weak pair. Betting is pretty much only good if he has exactly a draw, and we dont know that he has that, but we do know we now have 2nd pair and wont feel good if called/raised.

As played river is probably an easy fold, but I'd check behind turn and call a river bet or bet/fold if checked to on river.

[BigPapi]

- I'm more likely to have it then him or so to speak there are more hands with an ace in my range then in his'. Thiswould be better if I'd bet with tens here.

- in general an overcard scares most players at lower levels. Even when a face card comes on the turn and the board was T72r it's beautifull to bet when you don't have it.

- I hate a c/fold in this position. feels so weak

edit because I didnt see your edit: hmm, yes I can see merits of checking behind. I play it that way when I really do have the ace. So it might actually be better yes.

[bjsaust]

I edited to give more thoughts but:

1 - Yes you are, which is why you bluff scare cards, but you dont want to bluff here.

2 - Again, why do you want to scare him off his Qx or worse hands?

3 - Unless you got the HH wrong you're in position here, so you're checking behind to play a river, not check/folding the turn.

[BigPapi]

you're right. i was IP, so checking would have been better. thanks!

[minSim]

bjsaust,

Am I right that you think that the extra value you gain from Qx on the river by checking turn + the added amount of bluffs you pick up there, more than makes up for the times you'll get outdrawn?

(not to attack you, just trying to clear the arguments up)


I'd argue that imo we're not getting called that often by Qx or worse on the river, not way more often than on the turn.
Also, I think there's a decent amount of draws in villains range that we can get value from on the turn.
I have trouble estimating the extra bluff picking value we miss by betting turn.

In the end, I don't know which one is better. The more draws, the better betting turn is, but I'm not sure if there are enough here.

[bigspenda73]

turn is a great card to bluff..........

[griffey24]

Betting or not betting this turn depends a lot on the villain, and the dynamic between you two.

A thinking player will perceive this as a good spot to bluff, and will call all Qx hands that they called on turn, so betting KK here is good.

A non-thinking player will just be scared of the Ace and c/f a lot here, in which case, checking to get a river bet could be better.

OP - if you're betting the turn with bluffs, and betting the turn with KK then I don't see why you'd check the turn when you had the ace. Just bet it, otherwise it becomes too transparent.

[bode]

check back turn, call a reasonable bet on the river is a much better line vs an assumed bad(ish) villain.

[bjsaust]

Yeah, on some level you're right Griffey, but this is 50nl v's an unknown player new to the table. Any value from balance is WAY outweighed by playing the hand straightup for the best value we can.

MinSim I read a great paragraph in Harrington on Cash that talked about spots similar to this, while the draw is a concern, theres only so much chance he even has the draw and when he does only so much chance he'll hit it, so you end up with a fairly small chance that giving him a free card is a mistake compared to the much higher chance that betting here is a mistake for other reasons.

[meeloche]

This is a really popular donk bluffing line actually. You will see a lot of Qx as well.
Flop bet and turn bet are pretty standard vs stationy donks for me.
If hes been playing semi aggressive and you've been pounding on him a bit I probably look him up here and expect to see a wide range. This is really a in the moment decision and depends a lot on previous hands he's played with you.

[Galapogos]

Turn isn't a bluff, it's a value bet. Bad players don't fold top pair from the flop. Or gutshots.

[mixchange]

i'd rather check behind for value and call river

you're folding out worse too much on turn and keeping better
river std. fold as played you have second pair vs. a river shove and flop only has one draw j10

(this is vs. bad player, I like griffey's thinking a lot regarding how to play this)

also several types of bad players:
1)those that hate folding and even if behind will chase; if so bet turn
2) those that love floating any flop with an ace (seems imo more common with someone who limp calls though)
3) those that just see their hand and see you betting twice and the ace is out. they think you may have cbet air and fold prolly everything except Ax and KQ+. Against this player we check turn to call river or VB river

also your image/history if applicable but sounds like it isn't here

against random opponent with little history I check turn because without history its tough to get value from random bad player for 3 sts and to get optimal for 2 its check turn

[BigPapi]

This is a really popular donk bluffing line actually. You will see a lot of Qx as well.
Flop bet and turn bet are pretty standard vs stationy donks for me.
If hes been playing semi aggressive and you've been pounding on him a bit I probably look him up here and expect to see a wide range. This is really a in the moment decision and depends a lot on previous hands he's played with you.

indeed. unfortunately this was our first hand and I had never seen him before. With reads/game flow I might call this down, but I always prefer to see someone do something bad before making marginal decisions (which might not be as marginal against some of those players)

[bigspenda73]

I always was in the camp that you don't get any information unless you call.

[griffey24]

Yeah, on some level you're right Griffey, but this is 50nl v's an unknown player new to the table. Any value from balance is WAY outweighed by playing the hand straightup for the best value we can.

I agree with this to some extent. In a vacuum against this one particular player, checking the turn may be the best line. But another consideration (albeit not a huge one necessarily) is that people notice big pots, especially the regs at any level. So barreling KK for value here isn't only for balance against this one 'unknown', but all players at the table will realize you're capable of this as well (if they're paying attention).

[BigPapi]

I believe I got some info during the hand the way he played it. I tried calling down more at 100NL and it just seemed to be losing money as they'd have some weird 2pair kind of hands

[Halv]

I like checking and getting in a river bet vs unknowns. As played I look him up. His line doesn't make sense for anything (well 86s got there but meh) and we're getting a good price.

Do you shove the river yourself if he checks?

[mcatdog]

Turn is a bet all day to get value from second pair and charge draws. All you checkers realize we have KK not QT right? I don't think you need to bet quite $11 on the turn, $8 or $9 is enough.

Edit: As played I call the river too.

[ATOTHEC101]

meh, I play it the same (occasionally checking turn back), id bet 5.5 on the flop rather than 4.5. Turn bet is good and then when he donk shoves river im calling, not happy about it but calling none the less,if he had aces up id have thought hed check raise turn but maybe im wrong. I think checking the turn against a shorter stack with what is often the best hand isnt optimal and youll get paid off by most queens and combo draws,

[bode]

Turn is a bet all day to get value from second pair and charge draws. All you checkers realize we have KK not QT right? I don't think you need to bet quite $11 on the turn, $8 or $9 is enough.

Edit: As played I call the river too.

i dont think were getting 3 streets of value here from a Q unless villain is really bad. i was always under the impression that the standard line for getting 2 streets is to check behind on dry boards like this so a) villain knows (or thinks he knows) that were scared of the A and is more likely to look up a bet on the river and b) to show the hand down so we know more about villains range.