Ask Spoony About Full Ring

[spoonitnow]

Ask away.

I'll answer every question.

Even if it's not about full ring.

[BLaCKDiAMoND]

Ok... I'll play along.

Subject: Short-stacking scumbags
Question: How to avoid them altogether or how to kill them?

These pricks are everywhere, at every table, at every level.

Maybe someone else can come up with something a little more conversation worthy but this is all I can think of...

[d0zer]

You're OOP and were the preflop raiser, you're holding AJ. Flop comes K63 two-tone and c-bet & get called. Turn comes another rag (still two-tone).

Inside a vacuum, with no reads but stats (say 100 hands). What would you like the villain's stats to look like for you to lead the turn? Are there any stats that just scream "will float the flop light (or chase a FD), but give up on the turn"?

Same thing now, but you have position on the villain and he's checking to you.

[spoonitnow]

Ok... I'll play along.

Subject: Short-stacking scumbags
Question: How to avoid them altogether or how to kill them?

These pricks are everywhere, at every table, at every level.

Maybe someone else can come up with something a little more conversation worthy but this is all I can think of...

On avoidance: As part of my current table selection (which previously just consisted of sorting tables by pot size), I now choose not to play on any table that has more than 2 stacks below 40bb. However, you [generally] can't avoid them completely if you multi-table, so it's best to learn to some degree how to play effectively against them and think about differently-sized stacks.

One suggestion would be to do a study of short-stacking. It's a useful skill to have.

[spoonitnow]

You're OOP and were the preflop raiser, you're holding AJ. Flop comes K63 two-tone and c-bet & get called. Turn comes another rag (still two-tone).

Inside a vacuum, with no reads but stats (say 100 hands). What would you like the villain's stats to look like for you to lead the turn? Are there any stats that just scream "will float the flop light (or chase a FD), but give up on the turn"?

Same thing now, but you have position on the villain and he's checking to you.

In general, if villain's turn aggression is much higher (2x+) his flop aggression, then generally he or she likes to see turns when they see flops, and they like to float.

The problem in this particular hand (out of position example) is that most anything that just calls the flop is also going to call the turn, so we have to be prepared to triple-barrel when the flush draw doesn't complete. Also, it's doubtful we're getting these guys off of a flush draw -- in fact, their inability to fold when given incorrect odds is one of our biggest advantages.

When in position, I would probably take a free card in most instances since I think that's the best EV-wise play against most villains.

[SixT-4]

How do you play more than 30 minutes of full ring without committing suicide?

[spoonitnow]

How do you play more than 30 minutes of full ring without committing suicide?

I turn off the clock on my task bar and set the alarm on my cell phone for however long I want to play. Then I really just focus on the game and thinking about different things and trying to make good plays. When you really lose yourself in thought and become totally absorbed in your play, time goes by pretty quickly.

This is a true story: I remember one afternoon in early February specifically where I was either 16-tabling or 18-tabling 200nl and played 7500 hands before I realized that I put the wrong time (am instead of pm) on the alarm on my phone. I thought it had been about an hour and a half or maybe two hours but it had been closer to eight.

[SixT-4]

Lol awesome. That's actually a pretty damn good reply for my sarcastic post.

[d0zer]

In general, if villain's turn aggression is much higher (2x+) his flop aggression, then generally he or she likes to see turns when they see flops, and they like to float.

The problem in this particular hand (out of position example) is that most anything that just calls the flop is also going to call the turn, so we have to be prepared to triple-barrel when the flush draw doesn't complete. Also, it's doubtful we're getting these guys off of a flush draw -- in fact, their inability to fold when given incorrect odds is one of our biggest advantages.

When in position, I would probably take a free card in most instances since I think that's the best EV-wise play against most villains.

Good point about not being able to get villain off flush draws if he calls the flop.



I haven't been using a HUD/PT for that long, so I'm still kind of new to characterizing villains. Any general tips for reading player types would be much appreciated.

For example I've noticed that villains with stats like 40/2/.5 habitually reveal hand strength by bet size. Minbet = bottom pair, 1/3rd pot = middle pair, 1/2pot or greater = TP, overbet/re-raise = strong holding. Every now and then you run into one who minbets a really strong hand, and it works on me every time

-TAGG or Tight passive types are better to bluff than looser players.

-If a 20/2 makes a PFR, get the hell out of there without something really strong.

-A 14/12 raising from CO/BU is a good candidate to defend your blinds with a 3-bet.

-Villains with low post-flop aggression like to slowplay

These are a few of some of the more obvious 'general' reads I've incorporated into my game, but I know there's more out there...

[Robb]

In your opinion, what is your favorite type of FR table, other than lots of huge stacks and bad players on your right? What VP$P/PFR do you like to see, and why?

Or is it all about pot size?

[Robb]

Another question: have you have seriously short-stacked? If so, how many hands and what type of results?

I'm considering a 5k or 10k test of short stacking in April.

[spoonitnow]

I haven't been using a HUD/PT for that long, so I'm still kind of new to characterizing villains. Any general tips for reading player types would be much appreciated.

Off of the top of my head I'm remembering a few things that aren't particularly obvious at first unless you think about it.

The attempt to steal % stat tells you how often someone raises when it's folded to them in either the cutoff, button, or small blind. A side effect is that by comparing their attempt to steal to their preflop raise %, you can have a good idea of how positionally aware they are, which can help you put people on better ranges sometimes depending on their position.

The won $ at showdown % is generally rather useless. Any information you could try to get from this stat can be gathered from other stats.

On my pop-up stats, I like to have won SD when raised turn and same for river. This helps in a lot of spots that are easy to mess up, like overpairs on a seemingly safe board facing a big turn raise.

[spoonitnow]

In your opinion, what is your favorite type of FR table, other than lots of huge stacks and bad players on your right? What VP$P/PFR do you like to see, and why?

Or is it all about pot size?

First off, it's probably important to note that while I sort my tables by pot size at first, I usually end up playing on tables with anywhere from a 40bb average pot size to a 5bb average pot size, and that doesn't really bother me, nor change my play much.

I prefer to see really tight players because they're the easiest to play against. Guys who are 12/10 or so are great, and I enjoy paying my bills with their hard-earned money. Guys who are 20/7 or so are also easy to play against. The players I have the hardest time with are the somewhat aggressive and fairly aware 15/13-17/15 types. Luckily there aren't many of those.

On a final note, while I can play well against short-stacks, it's easier to just avoid playing on a table with a lot of them because it makes the hands more complicated when you're playing against multiple-sized stacks, and I don't do so well in those spots while playing as many tables as I typically do. So, as I stated above, I prefer to have 2 or less stacks that are less than 40bb.

[gametight]

1. Whats the biggest adjustment to make when moving from 100nl to 200nl?

2. How many times do you need a decent TAG to 3 bet your obvious isolation raise before you begin light 4 betting against him?

3. What kind of winrate do you think is sustainable 16-18 tabling 200nl?

4. Do you ever play donkaments?

[23:39] <dwarfman> you know what spoonitnow
[23:39] <dwarfman> i have an ask spoonitnow question.
[23:39] <spoonitnow> okay
[23:39] <spoonitnow> go for it
[23:39] <dwarfman> what the fucks hot in poker in 2008. like, i'm still in a bit of a 2006 mindset here since i took so long out
[23:40] <dwarfman> eg. if you asked me what $25NL was like at party i would say fucking easy
[23:40] <spoonitnow> i tell you what
[23:40] <spoonitnow> i'll answer better if you ask in my thread in the full ring forum, it doesn't have to be about full ring for you
[23:40] <dwarfman> you're dreamy.

[spoonitnow]

Another question: have you have seriously short-stacked? If so, how many hands and what type of results?

I'm considering a 5k or 10k test of short stacking in April.

Yes, and this is something that I don't typically talk about because I don't want to encourage players to do it.

Last summer I did about 35k of 50nl while 25bb-ing and did another 30k or so 50bb-ing at 50nl as well. If I remember correctly, I ran about 3 ptbb/100 while 25bb-ing and 4 ptbb/100 while 40bb-ing. I did a fairly extensive study of 20bb-ing and 25bb-ing for the months before that, and tried 40bb-ing on a whim after working out what I assumed would be close to correct strategy in what I assumed would be a lot common spots.

I refuse to discuss details of my study or play though. Sorry.

Euphoricism is probably the best FTR 40bb-er, so you could ask him about it. As far as 20-bbing goes, I'm not sure if there are any FTR'ers that are still around that were good at it.

[spoonitnow]

1. Whats the biggest adjustment to make when moving from 100nl to 200nl?

2. How many times do you need a decent TAG to 3 bet your obvious isolation raise before you begin light 4 betting against him?

3. What kind of winrate do you think is sustainable 16-18 tabling 200nl?

4. Do you ever play donkaments?

1. Players actually pay attention more, so you can't just automatically steal from that 12/10 over and over and over again without him 3-betting you. The best way I can describe it is that they're fairly better preflop and somewhat better post-flop. The players also get a little more tricky, but not a lot. I would recommend not making any huge adjustments at first -- just play your regular game and go from there.

2. If they do it twice inside of an hour or so then I raise an eyebrow and usually make a note that they're a candidate for such. At 100nl this almost never happens, but at 200nl there are more players who are thinking to some degree so you have to start making considerations for it, but the 3-betting game is nothing like 6-max.

3. That's a tough one. At 100nl I think 5 ptbb/100 is possible when 16+ tabling. I've pulled > 4.5 ptbb/100 for a while now. At 200nl I'm not really sure. This would be a much better question for Renton, and I would ask him right now in AIM but he's not there. If I had to guess, I'd say at least 3.5 ptbb/100, quite possibly 4 ptbb/100.

Edit: I asked Renton later on in the evening and he suggested 5 ptbb/100 as being the best win-rate at 200nl someone should hope for 16-tabling.

4. Rarely, and it's usually due to boredom or last-longer bets. I first was interested in poker because of tournaments and the competitive aspect or however you want to put it, but I enjoy cash games much more now. One exception is the 5400 FPP 10-player satellites to the Sunday Million (4 seats), which I regularly play if I don't have time for a good long cash game session -- they're killer EV and the players are horrible.

[Robb]

Yes, and this is something that I don't typically talk about because I don't want to encourage players to do it.

Last summer I did about 35k of 50nl while 25bb-ing and did another 30k or so 50bb-ing at 50nl as well. If I remember correctly, I ran about 3 ptbb/100 while 25bb-ing and 4 ptbb/100 while 40bb-ing. I did a fairly extensive study of 20bb-ing and 25bb-ing for the months before that, and tried 40bb-ing on a whim after working out what I assumed would be close to correct strategy in what I assumed would be a lot common spots.

I refuse to discuss details of my study or play though. Sorry.

NP. I'm not really interested in short-stacking except to sort of understand the pros and cons which is hard to do without trying it out. It's a pretty tough nut to crack from my deep stack perspective right now. I break even against shorties right now, but they require a good bit of avoidance and very thoughtful attacks.

BTW, why do you want to discourage FTR'rs from doing it when folks like fnord seem to be encouraging it? You said you would answer any question

[spoonitnow]

[23:39] <dwarfman> you know what spoonitnow
[23:39] <dwarfman> i have an ask spoonitnow question.
[23:39] <spoonitnow> okay
[23:39] <spoonitnow> go for it
[23:39] <dwarfman> what the fucks hot in poker in 2008. like, i'm still in a bit of a 2006 mindset here since i took so long out
[23:40] <dwarfman> eg. if you asked me what $25NL was like at party i would say fucking easy
[23:40] <spoonitnow> i tell you what
[23:40] <spoonitnow> i'll answer better if you ask in my thread in the full ring forum, it doesn't have to be about full ring for you
[23:40] <dwarfman> you're dreamy.

Well, I don't know about any sites other than PokerStars these days since I don't play anywhere but there.

A random observation, but pot-limit omaha has seemed to pick up a bit. I think limit hold'em might be making a minor comeback soon as well.

No-limit hold'em is still where it's at currently, but times have changed a bit. If you can handle a bit of multitabling, then go with full ring on one of the major sites with a lot of tables. If not, then do the same but for 6-max. If instead you're in it for some quick $$, hunt out fish pools on second-rate sites. Pretty standard stuff.

Rakeback is probably a little more important to your bottom line these days than it was a few years ago since everyone's win-rates are lower and there are fewer and fewer attractive bonuses.

Also, turbo sit-and-goes have gotten a lot harder from what I hear.

If you decide to get back in it then I personally suggest you play 6-max and work on improving as a player. I think this skills-based approach will serve you better personally than trying to make money.

In any event, good luck at whatever you decide to do, poker or not, and I hope to see you around.

[spoonitnow]

Yes, and this is something that I don't typically talk about because I don't want to encourage players to do it.

Last summer I did about 35k of 50nl while 25bb-ing and did another 30k or so 50bb-ing at 50nl as well. If I remember correctly, I ran about 3 ptbb/100 while 25bb-ing and 4 ptbb/100 while 40bb-ing. I did a fairly extensive study of 20bb-ing and 25bb-ing for the months before that, and tried 40bb-ing on a whim after working out what I assumed would be close to correct strategy in what I assumed would be a lot common spots.

I refuse to discuss details of my study or play though. Sorry.

NP. I'm not really interested in short-stacking except to sort of understand the pros and cons which is hard to do without trying it out. It's a pretty tough nut to crack from my deep stack perspective right now. I break even against shorties right now, but they require a good bit of avoidance and very thoughtful attacks.

BTW, why do you want to discourage FTR'rs from doing it when folks like fnord seem to be encouraging it? You said you would answer any question

My interests are different than fnord's for the time being. My main source of income right now is poker, so the decisions I make in the forums have to reflect that. While I'll never give intentionally bad advice, short-stacking is something I prefer to keep pretty hush-hush.

On another note, I think it's easier to go from playing 100bb stacks to smaller stacks than to go from smaller stacks to 100bb stacks, so I like to encourage players to get better with 100bb stacks first.

[daven]

assuming $3.5k current bankroll, how many more hands at >4.5BB/100 playing 50nl would you suggest before moving up? (i'm thinking 80k)

on a related note, is it worth moving from 8-10 tabling up to 16+ tabling before making the move?

[spoonitnow]

assuming $3.5k current bankroll, how many more hands at >4.5BB/100 playing 50nl would you suggest before moving up? (i'm thinking 80k)

on a related note, is it worth moving from 8-10 tabling up to 16+ tabling before making the move?

It depends on how many hands of 50nl you have played so far and over how many hands you have ran what I'm assuming is >4.5 ptbb/100.

I typically suggest that players who multi-table to any degree have at least $4000 before moving up to 100nl, although a nice round $5000 looks better to me.

In your particular case, and addressing your second question also, I'd suggest you build up to and adjust however you might to playing 12 tables, and stay at that amount as you move up to 100nl and beyond. Later on you might want to work on adding more tables, but it's not necessary really.

Good luck on the move.

[kingnat]

It looked like you had some awesome insight into using PokerEV to analyze play... (you're only example was for naked nut flush draws i think).... do you have a plan to layout some more ways of using this to analyze play and create a "2+2 pokey-esque PT-kinda" thread?

How has your perspective on poker changed since you got your stake and started playing again? (I guess I'm mostly interested in your mind set previously)

How long do you think you'll play poker for a living?

If an individual has near perfect PF play, (positionally aware, 3betting, etc.)... what do you think is the biggest post-flop leak these players have?

[spoonitnow]

It looked like you had some awesome insight into using PokerEV to analyze play... (you're only example was for naked nut flush draws i think).... do you have a plan to layout some more ways of using this to analyze play and create a "2+2 pokey-esque PT-kinda" thread?

How has your perspective on poker changed since you got your stake and started playing again? (I guess I'm mostly interested in your mind set previously)

How long do you think you'll play poker for a living?

If an individual has near perfect PF play, (positionally aware, 3betting, etc.)... what do you think is the biggest post-flop leak these players have?

On PokerEV; no, not really. I brought the filtering to the attention of FTR, and I posted that I was leaving it to the rest of the community to come up with ways to use it. Later on I might decide to do this for my 10,000th post or something, but for now, nah.

Most of my perspective was based on short-handed limit-hold'em beforehand, and because the games were so soft I hadn't really dug into anything specifically no-limit related. There really wasn't a need to then (seemingly) because you could beat 100nl off of common sense and a basic knowledge of pot odds and preflop strategy. When I started playing full ring last year, the point of it all was to get to the point that I could put myself through the rest of school on poker, whereas before I was mostly just screwing around.

I'll probably continue to have poker as my main source of income until I finish school and start teaching [college]. After that I'll probably continue to play a bit, but nowhere near as much as I do now. As I said earlier, the point of poker for me is to get through school without worrying about money so much.

That's a hard question to answer because it's totally player dependent. The most common post-flop mistakes I see from players that are decent preflop are just betting errors. It's almost like they've worked on their preflop game a lot and neglected post-flop stuff so they make a lot of really bad decisions in general. I hope that makes sense.

[Robb]

I'm considering working a good bit on my game theory, things like balancing ranges, using some randomness to mix up my ABC play, like VERY occasionally limp/rr'ing Aces, that sort of thing. I refused to do anything even low tech at 10nl because, quite simply, anything other than betting good cards and folding bad ones is FPS at that level.

Frankly, the same is true at 25nl, but there are a few decent players, maybe 25-30% of the players I face. As long as I keep the "optimal" line at 80-90%, mixing things up a bit will just make me harder to play against. And I'm not talking about big -EV lines, just other good lines like limp/calling w/ small pp's in EP. (I raise or fold small pp's in EP, although I will limp into a 5-way pot from the blinds with 22-77.)

I think taking my whole game apart and putting it back together will let me know with more certainty exactly where I'm playing the cards face up, where a thinking player (thankfully few and far between) can see exactly what I'm doing. I think it will be a profitable exercise.

Examples of things I'm thinking about.

1.In EP, limp/call w/ a third of small pp's, limp/rr w/ 10% of AA and KK.
2. Adjust cbetting frequency (absent reads, boards, stack sizes and other playing conditions that dictate certain lines) in a random way so that only a certain (hopefully optimal) percentage of flops are cbet.
3. Adjust cbetting amounts with randomness to insure that a mixture of great/mediocre/bad hands are cbet at 2/3's pot, 3/4's pot, or PSB. Again, game conditions may dictate certain plays, but if two or more cbet/value bet sizes are available, I should have a way of insuring strong and weak holdings are both in my "range."

I know this is Level 2, thinking about what my opponents will think I'm holding. And virtually no one (including me!!) at 25nl is thinking even Level 1 in any coherent, methodical way. But what do you think of a 25nl player adding just a touch of game theory and mathematical randomness to get ready for higher limits and build a better all-around game?

And do you have any hints for small randomness inserts (like the way you choose one sc to play for a raise from EP each session)? I don't even want anything that radical (it IS 25nl after all) - just some basic things to swap in out of my standard lines. Any thoughts much appreciated.

[spoonitnow]

I'm considering working a good bit on my game theory, things like balancing ranges, using some randomness to mix up my ABC play, like VERY occasionally limp/rr'ing Aces, that sort of thing. I refused to do anything even low tech at 10nl because, quite simply, anything other than betting good cards and folding bad ones is FPS at that level.

Frankly, the same is true at 25nl, but there are a few decent players, maybe 25-30% of the players I face. As long as I keep the "optimal" line at 80-90%, mixing things up a bit will just make me harder to play against. And I'm not talking about big -EV lines, just other good lines like limp/calling w/ small pp's in EP. (I raise or fold small pp's in EP, although I will limp into a 5-way pot from the blinds with 22-77.)

I think taking my whole game apart and putting it back together will let me know with more certainty exactly where I'm playing the cards face up, where a thinking player (thankfully few and far between) can see exactly what I'm doing. I think it will be a profitable exercise.

Examples of things I'm thinking about.

1.In EP, limp/call w/ a third of small pp's, limp/rr w/ 10% of AA and KK.
2. Adjust cbetting frequency (absent reads, boards, stack sizes and other playing conditions that dictate certain lines) in a random way so that only a certain (hopefully optimal) percentage of flops are cbet.
3. Adjust cbetting amounts with randomness to insure that a mixture of great/mediocre/bad hands are cbet at 2/3's pot, 3/4's pot, or PSB. Again, game conditions may dictate certain plays, but if two or more cbet/value bet sizes are available, I should have a way of insuring strong and weak holdings are both in my "range."

I know this is Level 2, thinking about what my opponents will think I'm holding. And virtually no one (including me!!) at 25nl is thinking even Level 1 in any coherent, methodical way. But what do you think of a 25nl player adding just a touch of game theory and mathematical randomness to get ready for higher limits and build a better all-around game?

And do you have any hints for small randomness inserts (like the way you choose one sc to play for a raise from EP each session)? I don't even want anything that radical (it IS 25nl after all) - just some basic things to swap in out of my standard lines. Any thoughts much appreciated.

I think that there are aspects of game theory that players can use in their game at all levels, but there are some considerations that you need to make before you start making too many adjustments at microstakes.

The majority of what you learn about no-limit hold'em that isn't basic math stuff like odds is based on beating players that are bad for doing certain things. These certain things are playing too many hands, taking bad hands too far, making frequent betting mistakes, etc. A tight-aggressive game is built around taking advantage of these characteristics of bad players. Essentially, we're deviating away from what we expect optimal play to be to exploit these players. What I'm getting at is that a lot of adjustments that might be good against better players could actually hurt your win-rate against worse players.

A perfect example of this is limp/raising KK+ in early position.

With that in mind, I suggest trying to learn more about no-limit hold'em before you dive into that aspect of game theory and the applications of it to your game. Things like mixing up your play with certain frequencies isn't going to make much of a difference since very, very, very few players under 200nl FR even pay attention to what you're doing, and if you pay attention and take notes right, you'll know who these players are. Instead, spend the allotted time you have for poker study on post-flop play.

I know you're itching to jump into game theory stuff and apply it to your game, but it's probably a little early for that. Once you get a better handle on the game, then the game theory stuff will come a bit more naturally and you'll be able to make better decisions.

As for random stuff, there are a number of fairly random numbers floating around while you play like the hand number, the ones minute digit on your computer (increments of 10%), the tens digit (increments of 1/6 but not great if you don't play long sessions), and so on. I gave the example of opening a single SC for a whole session from all positions to get people thinking about that sort of thing, but it's not a bad way to get started in that direction.

In conclusion, I suggest you not worry so much about the more advanced game theory aspects of the game and instead work more on your NLHE technique, especially post-flop.

[wesrman]

work more on your NLHE technique, especially post-flop.

Can u elaborate with some examples of post flop techniques that we should be working on and some tips on how to improve them as best as possible??
Also anything that noobs usually dont concentrate on enough or dont put enough time into that we should. Basically im looking for things to work on that i may be overlooking or not giving enough effort to that could help. Without getting overly fancy obv.
Aside from that any extra tips for hand reading on each street would be helpfull. Maybe some examples.
Its late and im tired as fuck so if this doesnt really make sense just ignore it.

[spoonitnow]

work more on your NLHE technique, especially post-flop.

Can u elaborate with some examples of post flop techniques that we should be working on and some tips on how to improve them as best as possible??
Also anything that noobs usually dont concentrate on enough or dont put enough time into that we should. Basically im looking for things to work on that i may be overlooking or not giving enough effort to that could help. Without getting overly fancy obv.
Aside from that any extra tips for hand reading on each street would be helpfull. Maybe some examples.
Its late and im tired as fuck so if this doesnt really make sense just ignore it.

The answer to most if not all of this is in your post-flop game, and it mostly comes down to putting your opponents on ranges. Just work on that, post hands, be active in discussion, and you'll develop the rest as you come up through the limits.

As far as putting your opponents on ranges goes, it's just a logical process of using the information you have to deduce what they might have, and there are better places to learn about how to do this than here.

[wesrman]

MEH, i know.
Most of my problem is lack of experience.
I need to learn the basics and just play more hands.
Thanks anyway.

[mcatdog]

Since you and Renton are too lame to respond to the other thread where I asked this question, I'll ask it here.

EP opens, solid MP player against whom we have no real history 3-bets and it's folded to us. Both us and MP have fairly deep stacks, like 150 BB or more. What range MP put us on if we cold 4-bet and what hands will he play against us? What if we flat? What would you do here with KK? AA? Would you ever cold 4-bet bluff? Do your answers to any of the above questions change depending on whether we're in the blinds or on the button?

[daven]

holding TT on the button, 4 limpers, raise or call? Same from SB
also AJs, AKo

[spoonitnow]

Since you and Renton are too lame to respond to the other thread where I asked this question, I'll ask it here.

EP opens, solid MP player against whom we have no real history 3-bets and it's folded to us. Both us and MP have fairly deep stacks, like 150 BB or more. What range MP put us on if we cold 4-bet and what hands will he play against us? What if we flat? What would you do here with KK? AA? Would you ever cold 4-bet bluff? Do your answers to any of the above questions change depending on whether we're in the blinds or on the button?

I've never seen the word cold put before 4-bet before.

MP will typically put us on small-middle pairs depending on a few things specific to the situation. If we 4-bet, it's hard to know what villain will put us on. I'd need to know more about both villains to be honest, but at least QQ+, AK obviously, maybe looser depending on how EP plays.

For me, KK+ is an obvious 4-bet here with deep stacks, although depending on the size of the 3-bet and villain's tendencies I could see a flat call especially if the EP player is short.

I doubt that I'll ever make an outright bluff here. It seems that it's doomed to be -EV against an EP raise and an MP 3-bet from a solid player. Solid players don't 3-bet EP raises with crap from MP.

If I'm on the button then not much changes since that slight change doesn't affect anything relevant enough to matter. From the blinds I might let AKo go occasionally, especially if EP and MP are tight players.

I hope that answers your question(s) to some degree.

[spoonitnow]

holding TT on the button, 4 limpers, raise or call? Same from SB
also AJs, AKo

I raise all of these hands from both of these positions after 4 limpers most of the time. If there were some sort of short-stacks involved or I had a read that the first limper likes to limp/reraise preflop, then I could see limping AJs, especially in the SB, but AKo is always a raise.

To add something potentially interesting to this, typically if I'm raising in this spot from the SB, I'll raise to 9x instead of 8x. My reasoning is that if the raise was made from the button, I would be betting 8bb to win 5.5bb. When the 9x raise is made from the SB, I would be betting 8.5bb to win 5.5bb, when the extra money helps to eliminate positional disadvantage if I'm called.

[fat-b]

HAI SPOON. HOW DO YOU PLAY SMALL PPs LIKE 22-66 FROM EARLY POSITION ? AND DO YOU 3BETS AJo/s OTB VS A 13/10/2.5 GUY ? OH AND I IS GOING PRO WITH MY CREDITS CARDS AS ROLL. NO WORRIS

[fat-b]

ADD IN AQs/o IN DAT 3BETS QUESTION TO. ldo

[fat-b]

I WANT ANSWER IF ITS VS A LP RAISER WHO IS LIKE .. 9/7/2.5 TO PLS.

[spoonitnow]

HAI SPOON. HOW DO YOU PLAY SMALL PPs LIKE 22-66 FROM EARLY POSITION ? AND DO YOU 3BETS AJo/s OTB VS A 13/10/2.5 GUY ? OH AND I IS GOING PRO WITH MY CREDITS CARDS AS ROLL. NO WORRIS

I don't usually play 22-66 in the first three positions. In middle position, I open raise with them when folded to, and will call a raise depending on stacks and whatnot, somewhat obviously.

I'll 3-bet with AJo on the button against a 13/10/2.5 if he raises from the CO, or HJ, or sometimes MP2 just depending on how I feel at the present time and the stacks.

And lol.

[fat-b]

you forgot my last post. concentrate.

[spoonitnow]

ADD IN AQs/o IN DAT 3BETS QUESTION TO. ldo

I 3-bet AQs a lot.

[spoonitnow]

I WANT ANSWER IF ITS VS A LP RAISER WHO IS LIKE .. 9/7/2.5 TO PLS.

If villain is CO or HJ then I'll 3-bet with AQs but maybe not with AJo. The cases with AJo really depend on how I feel about the player. His attempt to steal % is also important here.

[fat-b]

why dont you try to answer to one and one word , soo you get more posts ? you know you can write more then one line pr post.

[fat-b]

oh and thanks for answers. could probably save a shitload of time just PMing you at mirc and istead of refreshing this forum and browse down 6times.

[kingnat]

Do you still have the pokerstars vpp/hand w/ RB, etc. excel chart... i can't find that fucking thing?

Also have you considered the added $$$$ FT offers via their points program, e.g. buying iPod Touch's and selling 'em on Ebay? This seems like it might put FTP over the top, too bad their software kisses my brown eye.

If a 15/11 3bets you from the blinds in 50nl after you open 4x in HJ with TT, what is your plan for the rest of the hand?

[fat-b]

hi kingnat ! i can see you at irc ! wats ipa ?

[fat-b]

If a 15/11 3bets you from the blinds in 50nl after you open 4x in HJ with TT, what is your plan for the rest of the hand?

call and stack of on AKT board.

[spoonitnow]

Do you still have the pokerstars vpp/hand w/ RB, etc. excel chart... i can't find that fucking thing?

Also have you considered the added $$$$ FT offers via their points program, e.g. buying iPod Touch's and selling 'em on Ebay? This seems like it might put FTP over the top, too bad their software kisses my brown eye.

If a 15/11 3bets you from the blinds in 50nl after you open 4x in HJ with TT, what is your plan for the rest of the hand?

Taken from another thread:

I need a break from studying so I'll do a calculation for 100nl FR and 200nl FR based off of my play in December and January respectively.

It takes 28571.5 VPPs to make 100000 FPPs at Supernova, so each VPP is worth $0.0525.

100nl FR - 62250 hands, 22783 VPPs, $3389.53 MGR, $2652.60 contributed rake, $1196.11 effective rakeback, 35.29% of MGR, 45.09% of contributed rake

200nl FR - 70562 hands, 30400 VPPs, $5154.88 MGR, $3943.95 contributed rake, $1596.00 effective rakeback, 30.96% of MGR, 40.47% of contributed rake

I haven't made any calculations about Full Tilt's program. Any calculation must also take into consideration PokerStar's concierge service , which gives a slightly better rate on FPPs -> $$.

If there is no history at all, then I likely call if I have decent odds to set hunt and fold if I don't. This is a spot where knowing the player changes what I do.

[d0zer]

I haven't been using a HUD/PT for that long, so I'm still kind of new to characterizing villains. Any general tips for reading player types would be much appreciated.

Off of the top of my head I'm remembering a few things that aren't particularly obvious at first unless you think about it.

The attempt to steal % stat tells you how often someone raises when it's folded to them in either the cutoff, button, or small blind. A side effect is that by comparing their attempt to steal to their preflop raise %, you can have a good idea of how positionally aware they are, which can help you put people on better ranges sometimes depending on their position.

The won $ at showdown % is generally rather useless. Any information you could try to get from this stat can be gathered from other stats.

On my pop-up stats, I like to have won SD when raised turn and same for river. This helps in a lot of spots that are easy to mess up, like overpairs on a seemingly safe board facing a big turn raise.

This is all good stuff...

Why don't you build a roll for the high stakes & pwn those? Wouldn't you get a better return on your time investment playing 5/10?

[spoonitnow]

I haven't been using a HUD/PT for that long, so I'm still kind of new to characterizing villains. Any general tips for reading player types would be much appreciated.

Off of the top of my head I'm remembering a few things that aren't particularly obvious at first unless you think about it.

The attempt to steal % stat tells you how often someone raises when it's folded to them in either the cutoff, button, or small blind. A side effect is that by comparing their attempt to steal to their preflop raise %, you can have a good idea of how positionally aware they are, which can help you put people on better ranges sometimes depending on their position.

The won $ at showdown % is generally rather useless. Any information you could try to get from this stat can be gathered from other stats.

On my pop-up stats, I like to have won SD when raised turn and same for river. This helps in a lot of spots that are easy to mess up, like overpairs on a seemingly safe board facing a big turn raise.

This is all good stuff...

Why don't you build a roll for the high stakes & pwn those? Wouldn't you get a better return on your time investment playing 5/10?

That's easier said than done, especially when you pay your taxes.

[Robb]

You said above that you typically don't play 22-66 from EP. At 10nl, raising all pp's was very profitable (and I have stats for it). At 25nl, it's somewhat profitable, but may be a wash with a limp. But these hands are (imo) very profitable from all positions at microstakes, probably because villains suck so much. When does this change? At what limit did you begin not playing 22--66 very often from EP?

[d0zer]

That's easier said than done, especially when you pay your taxes.

Like...income tax, or da billz?

[pgil]

average hourly rate, if you don't mind sharing.

[spoonitnow]

You said above that you typically don't play 22-66 from EP. At 10nl, raising all pp's was very profitable (and I have stats for it). At 25nl, it's somewhat profitable, but may be a wash with a limp. But these hands are (imo) very profitable from all positions at microstakes, probably because villains suck so much. When does this change? At what limit did you begin not playing 22--66 very often from EP?

There's no doubt that it's profitable at 25nl. If I had to guess, I would say it's best to stop at 50nl. I personally stopped at 100nl after I discovered they weren't being particularly profitable.

[spoonitnow]

That's easier said than done, especially when you pay your taxes.

Like...income tax, or da billz?

Based on making $100,000 in 2008, federal income taxes will be about 22%. My state income tax is 7%. Self-employment taxes are 15.3%. The result: 44.3%.

Of course there are various deductions I can pull, but nothing too major since I don't really spend on much to begin with.

[spoonitnow]

average hourly rate, if you don't mind sharing.

At 100nl when I'm 16-tabling only non-fast tables I get right around 900 hands/hour. Over my past 150k or so I've been between 4 ptbb/100 and 4.5 ptbb/100. That's between $72 and $81 an hour.

In January, before I stopped playing 200nl, I played a little over 70k hands at the level with a win-rate that (when adjusted for AI equity) was over 3 ptbb/100. I also pulled around 900 hands/hour, so around $100-110/hour. My actual win-rate was about 2.3-2.5 ptbb/100, but my PokerEV luck graph from that month still makes me laugh.

[pgil]

awesome.

I would imagine your computer, internet, and a portion of your housing costs could all be deductions could they not? If not, you should look into setting things up so that they can be.

Some sort of business, pay yourself a salary type of situation.

[spoonitnow]

awesome.

I would imagine your computer, internet, and a portion of your housing costs could all be deductions could they not? If not, you should look into setting things up so that they can be.

Some sort of business, pay yourself a salary type of situation.

I'm not comfortable giving any sort of tax-related advice. However, I will say that at least portions of those things can be deducted if done correctly.

[pgil]

me neither, just sort of floating ideas that you may not have thought about. obviously anything tax related would have to go through an accountant.

[Robb]

awesome.

I would imagine your computer, internet, and a portion of your housing costs could all be deductions could they not? If not, you should look into setting things up so that they can be.

Some sort of business, pay yourself a salary type of situation.

I'm not comfortable giving any sort of tax-related advice. However, I will say that at least portions of those things can be deducted if done correctly.

I'm not comfortable giving advice on taxes either, except to say this. I do a bit of consulting on the side. Deducting business expenses for a home office is one of the red alerts that gets you audited more frequently. If your expenses aren't that much (say $1,000 or less, for poker - what do you need to play, really?), it's probably not worth it. Allowable business expenses are very tricky to justify properly, and I wouldn't do it without advice from a tax expert - which costs money.

[spoonitnow]

awesome.

I would imagine your computer, internet, and a portion of your housing costs could all be deductions could they not? If not, you should look into setting things up so that they can be.

Some sort of business, pay yourself a salary type of situation.

I'm not comfortable giving any sort of tax-related advice. However, I will say that at least portions of those things can be deducted if done correctly.

I'm not comfortable giving advice on taxes either, except to say this. I do a bit of consulting on the side. Deducting business expenses for a home office is one of the red alerts that gets you audited more frequently. If your expenses aren't that much (say $1,000 or less, for poker - what do you need to play, really?), it's probably not worth it. Allowable business expenses are very tricky to justify properly, and I wouldn't do it without advice from a tax expert - which costs money.

That was actually a part of the tax advice I wasn't going to give. GG sir.

[Robb]

That was actually a part of the tax advice I wasn't going to give. GG sir.

LoL. the MAN is going to get his, if you play by the rules. No way around it that's legal and ethical.

[spoonitnow]

That was actually a part of the tax advice I wasn't going to give. GG sir.

LoL. the MAN is going to get his, if you play by the rules. No way around it that's legal and ethical.

I have no problem with this. I can sit on a computer and play a card game, and after taxes make more than most people do before taxes -- and I'm not even that good.

[wesrman]

That was actually a part of the tax advice I wasn't going to give. GG sir.

LoL. the MAN is going to get his, if you play by the rules. No way around it that's legal and ethical.

I have no problem with this. I can sit on a computer and play a card game, and after taxes make more than most people do before taxes -- and I'm not even that good.

Its cuz u play at $100 NL where they respect your raises.
ldo

[Robb]

Question: where do you find 20 nl200 tables? Stars? Can you open that many tables at once, or do you have to play two (or more) sites at once?

NB: I can barely find enough nl25 fr tables to multitable 8 - 10 at UB/Absolute combined.

[wesrman]

Question: where do you find 20 nl200 tables? Stars? Can you open that many tables at once, or do you have to play two (or more) sites at once?

NB: I can barely find enough nl25 fr tables to multitable 8 - 10 at UB/Absolute combined.

Stars pwwwwwwwwns.

[spoonitnow]

Question: where do you find 20 nl200 tables? Stars? Can you open that many tables at once, or do you have to play two (or more) sites at once?

NB: I can barely find enough nl25 fr tables to multitable 8 - 10 at UB/Absolute combined.

On PokerStars you can play up to 24 tables of cash, and there are a lot more than that running at each level 200nl and down all day.

[Fnord]

You said above that you typically don't play 22-66 from EP. At 10nl, raising all pp's was very profitable (and I have stats for it). At 25nl, it's somewhat profitable, but may be a wash with a limp. But these hands are (imo) very profitable from all positions at microstakes, probably because villains suck so much. When does this change? At what limit did you begin not playing 22--66 very often from EP?

This stops becomming profitable when players 3-bet more often and won't always stack-off with over-pairs. Basically, only online mid-stakes games.

To contrast this, in my typical live game, lots of players won't 3-bet less than AA/KK some will cold call light (including offsuit broadways), then will pay-off more often post-flop.

[Fnord]

holding TT on the button, 4 limpers, raise or call? Same from SB
also AJs, AKo

TT: Raise, Call (raise in passive post-flop tight games)
AJs: Raise (call in wild games), Call (raise in passive post-flop tight games)
AK: Raise, Raise (sometimes call if the BB is frisky)

I will also bluff raise out of the SB here.

[Miffed22001]

question:

are you capable fo beating 5/10nl in any game type? eg 6max, fr etc etc

[Hawk]

Did you ever have a point where the light just came on regarding how to put someone on an accurate hand range (if so, explain what happened), or was it something that you just gradually got better at with practice?

[Pasta]

On my pop-up stats, I like to have won SD when raised turn and same for river. This helps in a lot of spots that are easy to mess up, like overpairs on a seemingly safe board facing a big turn raise.

Great tip; I added this immediately. What percentages do you look for before you put them on a bluff, and how much history do you need before you trust the read?

[jyms]

On my pop-up stats, I like to have won SD when raised turn and same for river. This helps in a lot of spots that are easy to mess up, like overpairs on a seemingly safe board facing a big turn raise.

Great tip; I added this immediately. What percentages do you look for before you put them on a bluff, and how much history do you need before you trust the read?

[Hawk]

how much history do you need before you trust the read?

I'm curious about this part too.

[spoonitnow]

question:

are you capable fo beating 5/10nl in any game type? eg 6max, fr etc etc

If I bought in for 100bb, I don't know to be honest. I would say that the best chance would be full ring, however.

If I bought in for less then I know I could beat it, but short-stacking is for homos and future cops.

[spoonitnow]

Did you ever have a point where the light just came on regarding how to put someone on an accurate hand range (if so, explain what happened), or was it something that you just gradually got better at with practice?

Putting people on ranges is something that people make so much harder than it is. You just start preflop with what you know about the person and say okay he probably has blah blah or blah or blah or maybe blah blah. Then as action continues in the hand you ask yourself which of those hands he would play like that and go from there.

Once I realized that the process is much easier than I was trying to make it, then I almost instantly got a bit better post-flop. I'm not extremely good at it by any means, but I have a good enough idea of what villains have on later streets that I'm making a lot more on the turn and especially river than I was say three months ago.

The thing is this -- it takes a lot of practice. There is no miracle solution that's instantly going to make you read hands near-perfectly, and that's a good thing. If it didn't take hard work, everybody would do it, and everybody would be a lot better at poker.

[spoonitnow]

On my pop-up stats, I like to have won SD when raised turn and same for river. This helps in a lot of spots that are easy to mess up, like overpairs on a seemingly safe board facing a big turn raise.

Great tip; I added this immediately. What percentages do you look for before you put them on a bluff, and how much history do you need before you trust the read?

There are no exact guidelines, but I'll give you an example of when it could help with the spot I discussed above.

You raise preflop with A A from MP and only a 14/4/1.5 calls you from the CO. Effective stacks are about 120bb. The flop comes K 9 4 and you lead the flop. Villain calls. The turn comes J . You decide to lead the turn since he could have a flush draw with a plan of check/calling a blank river. Instead of calling, villain raises you enough that if you call then you'll be forced to get it all-in on the river. A quick look to his stats shows that you have around 1750 hands on him and of the 6 times he's raised the turn and it went to showdown, he's won all 6.