2/4 Wierd Spot.

[aka_red]

So this is your first hand at the table. Both villains are unknown

Hero (BB) ($400)
UTG ($714.60)
UTG+1 ($386.90)
MP1 ($92.80)
MP2 ($462.20)
CO ($477)
Button ($511)
SB ($400)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, Q
3 folds, MP2 raises to $12, 1 fold, Button raises to $36, 1 fold, Hero ?

I guess I'm open to all options. I'm really interested to hear what others will say and why.

[jyms]

A PICTURE OF EVENTS OCCURRING IN THIS THREAD.

LET ME SOME THIS WHOLE HAND UP FOR YOU YOU FUCKING RETARDS.

YES POKER IS THIS FUCKING EASY YOU GUY JUST SUCK THAT FUCKING BAD.
GOOD FUCKING GAME
END FUCKING THREAD.

[aka_red]

A PICTURE OF EVENTS OCCURRING IN THIS THREAD.

LET ME SOME THIS WHOLE HAND UP FOR YOU YOU FUCKING RETARDS.

YES POKER IS THIS FUCKING EASY YOU GUY JUST SUCK THAT FUCKING BAD.
GOOD FUCKING GAME
END FUCKING THREAD.

contrary to the other thread. each option is viable, making it actually a decision. it has also yet to get gummed up with non-thinking micro donks. so as much as i love your post i feel that it does not apply to this thread at the moment. however, in the future if it does go that route feel free to re post as i will find it very amusing assuming it applies. if your implying that i will not give credit to the people who reply this is also very likely. however, who is to say that one of you guys won't get lucky and strike the gold that will spark an interesting conversation about the hand. if you feel that it is just this spot is just terribly easy and standard feel free to show me. however, since you did not re-edit my rant about the ease of the situation i'm assuming that this is over your head. but hey, i might be wrong. so if your slow rolling more power to you, as i said though i doubt that is the case.

[Keilah]

4bet
and
fold if mp2 shoves
call if mp2 folds and BU shoves

IMO

[jimmy44]

Well, I prefer folding here without stats/reads and this being our 1st hand.
I simply don't like 4bet/folding with QQ, I prefer to do it with a bluff hand. 4bet/calling is good if I know/have reads that villain(s) are capable of 5bet pushing QQ+/AK. Call puts us in a difficult position OOP on a 3bet pot, what do we do if a low flop comes, should we commit?

[daven]

at 100nl:
i flat. Reasoning, mp open range is wide and you're ahead. Button 3-bet range of unknowns is normally JJ+/AK. I fold to an MP 4-bet. Flop play depends on whether it is 2- or 3-way, and on texture.

folding is fine too

4-bet is only good with reads here

not sure how much more 3-betting button is going on at 400nl - this will obviously affect how this hand plays.

[elipsesjeff]

Well, folding is horrible because we're at least getting set odds to call in the reraised pot. So if he does have AA-KK we might get paid here, although to a thinking player our hand is very transparent.

I dont see a problem with calling and then seeing a flop; if we 4bet here folding would be equally as bad after that.

[jimmy44]

Well, folding is horrible because we're at least getting set odds to call in the reraised pot. So if he does have AA-KK we might get paid here, although to a thinking player our hand is very transparent.

I dont see a problem with calling and then seeing a flop; if we 4bet here folding would be equally as bad after that.

Actually, we are getting about 10.5-1 on implied odds without knowing anything about BU. Plus the fact that MP2 might 4bet/push and the fact that we will always be OOP (if MP2 calls our position would be even worst) makes me think that a call is not a good option.

[Keilah]

+1 I hate calling

[elipsesjeff]

Well, folding is horrible because we're at least getting set odds to call in the reraised pot. So if he does have AA-KK we might get paid here, although to a thinking player our hand is very transparent.

I dont see a problem with calling and then seeing a flop; if we 4bet here folding would be equally as bad after that.

Actually, we are getting about 10.5-1 on implied odds without knowing anything about BU. Plus the fact that MP2 might 4bet/push and the fact that we will always be OOP (if MP2 calls our position would be even worst) makes me think that a call is not a good option.

Yeah, but if MP2 calls our odds are even better. You guys make it think that QQ is impossible to play OOP, even though its the 3rd best hand in Poker and our opponent's hands will be very transparent on most flops. If you take calling QQ out of your arsenal then you're limiting a very profitable option. I'd certainly rather call here than 4bet/fold lmao.

[jimmy44]

Well, folding is horrible because we're at least getting set odds to call in the reraised pot. So if he does have AA-KK we might get paid here, although to a thinking player our hand is very transparent.

I dont see a problem with calling and then seeing a flop; if we 4bet here folding would be equally as bad after that.

Actually, we are getting about 10.5-1 on implied odds without knowing anything about BU. Plus the fact that MP2 might 4bet/push and the fact that we will always be OOP (if MP2 calls our position would be even worst) makes me think that a call is not a good option.

Yeah, but if MP2 calls our odds are even better. You guys make it think that QQ is impossible to play OOP, even though its the 3rd best hand in Poker and our opponent's hands will be very transparent on most flops. If you take calling QQ out of your arsenal then you're limiting a very profitable option. I'd certainly rather call here than 4bet/fold lmao.

I think you missed the point of the post.
Here we are talking about 1st hand of the table without any sort of read vs villains ...
With any reads, another option then folding is of course better

if button has AK we're only stacking him on a KQx or AQx flop

or we might think he has AK and get stacked when he shows us AA or KK in that spot

or MP2 can shove
I really don't like this spot

[badgers]

I still haven't voted in this poll because i simply cant decide. Calling seems like it would get us into trouble a lot, as does 4b/call and 4b/fold is just the worrst line in the world. I think just call and proceed very cautiously is best against unknowns, any history of aggression and you can 4bcall instead.

[a500lbgorilla]

4ball that shit

metagame

[aka_red]

4ball that shit

metagame

4b/?

[a500lbgorilla]

In all honesty, I think this decision is so close, we should go for the safest play which is cold-call and am for a set.

But if I 4ball, I'll probably call it off vrs buttons shove and fold vrs MP's shove though something tells me the correct move would be to 4ball/fold. Assume JJ probably doesn't shove preflop (but i dunno how the 2/4 games play)

[Muzzard]

fold>4b/call>call>4b/fold

[a500lbgorilla]

what? now is where you explain.

[Muzzard]

fold>4b/call>call>4b/fold

Given the fact they are unknowns, this means they either regs at other stakes or feesh or redzill4 would have hands on them. That said, in normal MP vs CO situations with regs we can assume CO 3bs light. However with no stats, I think they are more likely to be feesh and feesh probably aren't 3b that light in CO. If they are regs at other stakes, or just regs we haven't seen before then 4b is fine.

If we cold call 3b, we are basically playing our hand face up as I assume zill4 doesn't cold call 3b very much and probably only does it with a thinnish range. So vs anyone competent it's pretty easy to see what we have here and I can't see us playing the hand profitably post flop unless we hit a set and we could easily lose a stack on a low flop. Even calling for set odds seems fairly bad as MP2 could easily squeeze back here.

4bet calling seems terribal as we don't want to turn hands with pretty good equity into what is basically a bluff if we are folding. Our line is pretty strong if we 4bet we have plenty of fold equity. It could easily be seen as a light 4bet given the circs (mp2 vs CO 3b). This is highly dependent on what level vills are on and given we don't know anything about them, I just take the least variance line and fold.

Summing this up, I just fold if I feel I'm totally not sure where I'm at and not happy to get it in. I 4bet if I feel happy to get it in. I hardly ever call and NEVER 4b fold.

[Miffed22001]

with my image its a pretty easy 4bet.
Depends what yours is, if youre unknown its a 4bet IMO

[badgers]

with my image its a pretty easy 4bet.
Depends what yours is, if youre unknown its a 4bet IMO

you dont have an image against unknowns ldo

[elipsesjeff]

If we're getting it in all in here by 4betting, then calling to induce a squeeze by MP2 can't be bad because then it'll just increase his range and your equity. If you're unknown then they could just as easily think you're a donk too and your hand wont be faceup.

Folding seems to be the worst play IMO and saying to do it just so you can avoid playing in a tough spot seems to be the wrong reason. If you think you're behind then you can set mine because you're getting the odds; otherwise you're ahead and you should still play it and folding would be an even worse mistake.

I guess I just don't get the reason that since we don't know if we're ahead or behind then we should just take the easy way out and fold.

If we're getting it in all in here by 4betting, then calling to induce a squeeze by MP2 can't be bad because then it'll just increase his range and your equity. If you're unknown then they could just as easily think you're a donk too and your hand wont be faceup.

Folding seems to be the worst play IMO and saying to do it just so you can avoid playing in a tough spot seems to be the wrong reason. If you think you're behind then you can set mine because you're getting the odds; otherwise you're ahead and you should still play it and folding would be an even worse mistake.

I guess I just don't get the reason that since we don't know if we're ahead or behind then we should just take the easy way out and fold.

Are you calling here with 22 to setmine?

[elipsesjeff]

are you saying QQ=22?

[a500lbgorilla]

Are you saying QQ != 22!?

[badgers]

OK i'm going to make a mor in depth post maybe I'm talking crap and red will shoot me down which is fairly standard. Whatever maybe I'll learn something.

Fold - Obviously weak and lame, although it definitely is the easiest line. I don't think it's completely horrible, for instance if you compare folding to calling to set value, we aren't losing very much equity at all by folding and it's less variance and hassle. Still, fairly horrid weak line that I don't like.

4bet/ call - This line is ok... At 2/4 the games are aggro enough that an unknown BU can be expected to 3bet quite wide here, the problem is we might be making a huge mistake if he's a total nit and his 3bet range is AA/KK, or even a meh mistake if his shove range is KK+ (obv the more he 3bet/folds the better.) An unknown you can definitely put AK in stacking off range at least SOME of the time and obv some garbage because people are dumb.

4bet/fold - I reeeeaaaaally hate this. If I posted this and I held A5s wanting to 4bet/fold, I would probably get flamed a lot for wanting to do this against unknowns, and rightly so. But it has to be profitable as a bluff for us to want to do this and we don't even have blockers. Also, we can be making a huge mistake in folding to the shove if he's bad, we can also make a pretty big mistake if he shoves AK. It's just the worst line in the world, and for those saying it makes life easier, give me a plan for when he flats your 4bet....

Call - Stacks said in IRC that this makes our hand face up, but as I said to miffed we have NO IMAGE because this is our first hand and they don't know us presumably. We are getting around the right odds to set mine anyway but that would not be my mentality on here, it's pretty ridiculous to put a unknown on KK+ after he 3bets in a LP battle. If MP2 4bet squeezes then we just have to go with it. I think this is the best option, sure the reverse implied odds aren't fun but it's not that bad a spot, we can just c/f any A/K flop etc.

meh my analysis wasn't verry in depth i just waffled a lot.

Call>4bet/call>>>fold>4bet/fold

[jimmy44]

I'm starting to feel that call is the best play

[CGKIII]

Say we do call, what's next?

If MP2 shoves and BTN folds, I like folding. If BTN calls, I think I like folding even more.

If MP2 calls, I think we're playing no set, no bet.

The most interesting case, I think, is this...
Say MP2 folds, so it's heads up with the BTN with like $85 in the pot and $360 behind. I think I like CRAI on most flops (no A, no K, not super-scary). If BTN checks behind, I think the turn sucks to play. I have no idea what to do on the turn. Check/fold seems sort of weak, but that's what I'm leaning toward.

[BankItDrew]

I call a high % of the time here.

Outplay villains postflop, although oop.

[mcatdog]

It's pretty damn hard to outplay people OOP when your hand is face up and you have no reads on them.

[BankItDrew]

Poker is a guessing game and profits are maximized when we make the correct guesses in big pots.

[Miffed22001]

OK i'm going to make a mor in depth post maybe I'm talking crap and red will shoot me down which is fairly standard. Whatever maybe I'll learn something.

Fold - Obviously weak and lame, although it definitely is the easiest line. I don't think it's completely horrible, for instance if you compare folding to calling to set value, we aren't losing very much equity at all by folding and it's less variance and hassle. Still, fairly horrid weak line that I don't like.

4bet/ call - This line is ok... At 2/4 the games are aggro enough that an unknown BU can be expected to 3bet quite wide here, the problem is we might be making a huge mistake if he's a total nit and his 3bet range is AA/KK, or even a meh mistake if his shove range is KK+ (obv the more he 3bet/folds the better.) An unknown you can definitely put AK in stacking off range at least SOME of the time and obv some garbage because people are dumb.

4bet/fold - I reeeeaaaaally hate this. If I posted this and I held A5s wanting to 4bet/fold, I would probably get flamed a lot for wanting to do this against unknowns, and rightly so. But it has to be profitable as a bluff for us to want to do this and we don't even have blockers. Also, we can be making a huge mistake in folding to the shove if he's bad, we can also make a pretty big mistake if he shoves AK. It's just the worst line in the world, and for those saying it makes life easier, give me a plan for when he flats your 4bet....

Call - Stacks said in IRC that this makes our hand face up, but as I said to miffed we have NO IMAGE because this is our first hand and they don't know us presumably. We are getting around the right odds to set mine anyway but that would not be my mentality on here, it's pretty ridiculous to put a unknown on KK+ after he 3bets in a LP battle. If MP2 4bet squeezes then we just have to go with it. I think this is the best option, sure the reverse implied odds aren't fun but it's not that bad a spot, we can just c/f any A/K flop etc.

meh my analysis wasn't verry in depth i just waffled a lot.

Call>4bet/call>>>fold>4bet/fold

bump

We call and flop is seen 3 ways with pot about $90 and it doesnt contain an A or K

Tell me how you play now? My understanding of your post is that you didnt 4bet because you couldnt be happy versus a lot of expected action (ie 4 betting to fold was bad bad, 4 betting to call was meh maybe bad)
So this means that if you call you are committed to the flop for more chips for information; if cold 4bet/fold was bad then a donk/fold to push or donk/call a push is much worse and also loses more money long run/puts us commited to pot. Check/folding anything other than Qxx is so bad IMO is just unthinkable (folding is a better option pre)
So i assume you call and get it all in on safe flop (which IMO is just spew)

So id ask whats your postflop plan on rags if you call pre?

eg Flop

is it HU or 3way?

because the original raiser might call getting nice odds to setmine 3way

[aka_red]

well, after reading bankitnancy's post I'm pretty sure that those are losing lines so I'm happy with 4b/(c or f). I was also thinking about what mcat said and by that token just cold calling allows villain to play perfectly in position (this is how we lose money).

[aka_red]

is it HU or 3way?

because the original raiser might call getting nice odds to setmine 3way

lol there are so few pairs hes 3 betting for value in this spot its like TT/JJ. Those may come along vs the 4b anyways.

[BankItDrew]

hardy har har @ "bankitnancy's post I'm pretty sure that those are losing lines"

Maybe I should just give input and everyone can safely assume that that's what not to do...lawl

[Miffed22001]

well, after reading bankitnancy's post I'm pretty sure that those are losing lines so I'm happy with 4b/(c or f). I was also thinking about what mcat said and by that token just cold calling allows villain to play perfectly in position (this is how we lose money).

In a 2/4 game what type of player are you 4bet/c'ing and 4bet/fld'ing i.e define where the line is (eg id fold vs a 10/8 and call vs a 16/14 for example)

miffed's new avatar is amazing

[badgers]

yeah well I wasn't thinking c/shove a safe flop although I think that is probably better than 4b call since vill will cbet AK and all bluffs. I would still probably c/c, c/c to keep bluffs in villains range since it is an unknown and people do retarded bluffs all the time.

[Mr Bigcity]

you defiantly dont wanna fold in that situation.. i would play it aggressive.. aggressive poker is the best poker..

[will641]

since this is the first hand im def 4-bet calling, esp if you have no reads on either villains from previous session. i mean come on, nobody ever gives credit to someone when they just sit in.

[Deanglow]

you guys forget that when you have a strong hand face up people never expect you to fold so..............

[AFchung]

4bet

3bet from button means nothing............ hopefully