i really want to raise here

[XTR1000]

62/15,this person didnt 3bet all night long and has been donking anything remotely connected to the board.

$0.5/$1 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
CO ($85.70)
BTN ($81.90)
SB ($100.00)
BB ($246.40)

Pre-flop: ($1.50, 5 players) Hero is
2 folds, Hero raises to $3, 1 fold, BB calls $2

Flop: ($6.50, 2 players)
BB bets $2.50, Hero raises to $8, BB calls $5.50

Turn: ($22.50, 2 players)
BB bets $3, Hero raises to $18, BB calls $15

River: ($58.50, 2 players)
BB bets $6

[jimmy44]

Well this guy can have any crap.
The only hand I'm worried here is 86. In terms of hands that you beat, if you raise he will call you with TT+ and a 9. I don't think that this guy would call you with a 4 or 88.
I think I would b/c $40.

[ChrisBCritter]

I think a raise to $35 or so is profitable here also. What's the effective stack though? The converter left your stacksize out? 200BBs would make this very interesting/difficult if he pushed over a raise...

[Silly String]

His gaybets look to be blocking for a draw. I would just call river as many draws came in & we have a one pair type hand on a paired board vs. a guy playing 62% of his hands.
Without a better read on his gaybets I think the river is a call. I am assuming your stack is $81 as HH suggest you are OTB. If you are deeper, I can see a river r/f line.

P.S. I love your flop/turn play.

[XTR1000]

only read on his donkbets is they are totally random. he donk/folds just as often as he donks/calls, only thing he didnt do was donk/3b.

wt converter still seems to have trouble with these hh´s, Im btn with $130

[Galapogos]

How often does he donk/call the river with a really bad hand though?

[griffey24]

I just treat this as a check, and bet whatever I would have had he checked.

[nutsinho]

ehh just make it like 45. obvious fold to a shove, i dont see how that would be a tough spot at all.

[Alexos]

i make bigger raises on flop and turn, 10$ then >25$

as played raise river to 35$

[mcatdog]

ehh just make it like 45. obvious fold to a shove, i dont see how that would be a tough spot at all.

doesn't hero have like $10 behind if he makes it 45

[Silly String]

doesn't hero have like $10 behind if he makes it 45

wt converter still seems to have trouble with these hh´s, Im btn with $130

I did the same thing earlier.

[jrnumbers1]

I would probably have just called in this situation. Although it really seems like he is holding something similar to A9 or possibly 88, I wouldn't take a chance with him holding a hand like 68 or even possibly hitting his backdoor flush draw. Enough in the pot for you to be happy about, so I would say play it safe.

[Genitruc]

make it 30 and fold to a shove

[DonkeyDonk]

Why raise, you will be called by better. Your hand is easily beat. A raise is just for retribution against a donk but is very likely to backfire. Raise if you have the nuts but not one pair.

[nutsinho]

Why raise, you will be called by better. Your hand is easily beat. A raise is just for retribution against a donk but is very likely to backfire. Raise if you have the nuts but not one pair.

stay out of this forum plz k thx. mcatdog see xtr's 2nd post in thread.

[DonkeyDonk]

stay out of this forum plz k thx. mcatdog see xtr's 2nd post in thread.

You quote me then appear to talk to mcatdog. Not sure of the relevence but why are you telling someone to stay out of the forum.
See the note at the top which says 'Welcome to the forum'
You got an issue speak to the moderator.

[XTR1000]

stay out of this forum plz k thx. mcatdog see xtr's 2nd post in thread.

You got an issue speak to the moderator.

dude, he is the mod himself

[nutsinho]

yeah as the mod i try not to be a complete jerk to anyone but i have a hard time believing someone could make a post that terrible without it being a trolling attempt. if your post was sincere then i partially apologize but you really need to start a bit further down the ladder of interweb poker discussion.

[baudib]

Plus, hero has two pair!

[DoanDiggy]

Plus, hero has two pair!

That might actually be relevant if he would play a hand like 94s this way .

[nutsinho]

got dem tree purrss

[DoanDiggy]

My first reply was pretty useless, so I went and did something more useful. I put the top 65% of hands into Pokerstove, then I removed any hands that I thought would have folded before the river, and finally I removed any hands that I thought wouldn't call the river. I left the river calling range fairly wide, though. Here's the results:

Board: 9h 4c 7s 7c 5c
Dead:  

	equity 	win 	tie 	      pots won 	pots tied	
Hand 0: 	56.897%  	56.70% 	00.19% 	           148 	        0.50   { KcKs }
Hand 1: 	43.103%  	42.91% 	00.19% 	           112 	        0.50   { 77+, 55-44, AcQc, AcJc, AcTc, A9s, A7s, K9s+, K7s, Q9s+, Q7s, J9s+, Jc8c, J7s, T9s, Tc8c, T7s, 94s+, 86s+, 74s+, 63s, A9o, A7o, KTo-K9o, K7o, Q9o+, Q7o, J9o+, J7o, T9o, T7o, 97o+, 86o+, 76o }

You only have a 13.8% edge, meaning that you'd like him to put no more than $9 more into the pot. If you're confident his range is this wide, you can raise it to $14.50. Since he won't 3bet this is fine, but it seems like in most cases you might as well just flat call. I guess if we're raising this small, he might also call with some random pairs of 4s or 5s, so maybe you could make it 15-18. Making it 35+ as suggested seems to be -EV though.

If there's anything I've left out of his range that he will call you with or if some other part of my reasoning is screwed up, I'd love to hear it.

[nutsinho]

You only have a 13.8% edge, meaning that you'd like him to put no more than $9 more into the pot. If you're confident his range is this wide, you can raise it to $14.50. . Making it 35+ as suggested seems to be -EV though.

.

WAT

[mcatdog]

You only have a 13.8% edge, meaning that you'd like him to put no more than $9 more into the pot. If you're confident his range is this wide, you can raise it to $14.50. . Making it 35+ as suggested seems to be -EV though.

.

WAT

Cmon we should encourage new players to use Pokerstove, even if they're doing it all wrong and have no idea what they're talking about.

Diggy, any time you think you have more than 50% equity against the range of hands that will call your raise, you should be willing to put an infinite amount of money in the pot. "You'd like him to put no more than $9 in the pot" is wrong.

[DoanDiggy]

Oh, really? My fault then. I was thinking that when our value is this thin, we want to put less in. I was thinking that whatever our equity edge is, we want to put in that % of the current pot. Sorry for the $35+ comment, then, since it was obviously wrong.

So yeah, we are better than 50%, but only against a loose calling range. I still like a small raise up to like $25 or less because that's the best way to ensure that his calling range is so wide, and we don't generally fear a shove over a small raise since he doesn't tend to 3bet.

Is that a more correct way of thinking here?

[DonkeyDonk]

yeah as the mod i try not to be a complete jerk to anyone but i have a hard time believing someone could make a post that terrible without it being a trolling attempt. if your post was sincere then i partially apologize but you really need to start a bit further down the ladder of interweb poker discussion.

Well let me tell you as the mod you are being a complete jerk. Your message at the top says welcome to the forum, yet your comment was completely unwelcoming and rude.
My comments on the hand I believe to be valid and I was trying to be constructive no offense was meant.
I have been playing poker for a few years and am a member at card runners and have absorbed enough poker knowledge to know that my comments are valid and therefore have no need to to drop down 'the ladder'
If you want to encourage active and constructive discussion on this forum I suggest you moderate your own attitude

[bode]

yeah as the mod i try not to be a complete jerk to anyone but i have a hard time believing someone could make a post that terrible without it being a trolling attempt. if your post was sincere then i partially apologize but you really need to start a bit further down the ladder of interweb poker discussion.

Well let me tell you as the mod you are being a complete jerk. Your message at the top says welcome to the forum, yet your comment was completely unwelcoming and rude.
My comments on the hand I believe to be valid and I was trying to be constructive no offense was meant.
I have been playing poker for a few years and am a member at card runners and have absorbed enough poker knowledge to know that my comments are valid and therefore have no need to to drop down 'the ladder'
If you want to encourage active and constructive discussion on this forum I suggest you moderate your own attitude

yeah, MR. JERKFACE!!!

[DoanDiggy]

Why raise, you will be called by better. Your hand is easily beat. A raise is just for retribution against a donk but is very likely to backfire. Raise if you have the nuts but not one pair.

If you are only raising with the nuts, you are missing a lot of value. You will be called by better, but you will also be called by worse. As long as more than half of the people calling you here (in the poker game of life, not in this particular hand) are losing to you, you should be raising. It's important to size your raise appropriately to ensure that those worse hands will be willing to call you. If you raise too big, mostly only the better hands call you and raising is bad. If you call or raise too small, you are missing out on money that should be yours.

"Raise if you have the nuts but not one pair," is bad advice. That's why he was "a complete jerk."

Getting back on track, wanting to raise here was the right inclination.

[DonkeyDonk]

yeah, MR. JERKFACE!!!

Presumably this type of contribution is fine and welcome in this forum mr moderator or you going to advise him to stay out of the forum

[DoanDiggy]

Presumably this type of contribution is fine and welcome in this forum mr moderator or you going to advise him to stay out of the forum

So I'm assuming you've never been to the Internet before? Relax, this is the norm on most message boards. Don't take things so seriously .

[a500lbgorilla]

DonkeyDonk made me LOL 5 times. See if you can spot them!

[nutsinho]

@rilla:

Why raise, you will be called by better. Your hand is easily beat. A raise is just for retribution against a donk but is very likely to backfire. Raise if you have the nuts but not one pair.

1,2,3,4,5?

DD: a reasonable post from your (likely incorrect) POV would look more like:

Most of his calling range consists of better hands. Your hand is stronger than his leading range but probably a dog against his calling range when you make a sizable raise. The minimum hand i would raise for value with would be a straight.

This post would still tilt me but i would certainly not tell you to GTFO. Also fwiw bode is cool and is welcome in all of the threads.

[a500lbgorilla]

He peppered this thread with amusement.

Hint: I laughed pretty hard when he said his cardrunners subscription means he knows what he's talking about.

[Da GOAT]

glad i read this, in running for POTY

[tendre38]

make it 30 and fold to a shove!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sabr1988]

Maybe he just had A9......

Nah i think i would just call, he could also have had triple 9's..
If i had lots of cash i would raise to 15$ and just watch what he would do..

[nice_aiau]

Donkeydonk is making me anxious.

[celtic123]

I am a beginner and no nothing about poker. thats how to stop getting flamed on this forum.

[DonkeyDonk]

I dont really get all the hostility on this forum, (re some of the above comments) its seems very cliquey here and jargon/abbreviation crazy. If you dont agree with a post fine give a different opinion but is the hostility so necessary?
My post wasn't so bad. In the hand in question there are 3 to a straight, 3 to a flush, a paired board and its all over the villains range. Just calling would seem the sensible option for the hero. No matter how much the villains donkishness has teed off the hero thats not a good enough reason to put more chips at risk if he wants to play the hand profitably.
If this is not good advice then fine argue why. That is the point of the forum but please without the hostility.

[nutsinho]

I dont really get all the hostility on this forum, (re some of the above comments) its seems very cliquey here and jargon/abbreviation crazy. If you dont agree with a post fine give a different opinion but is the hostility so necessary?
My post wasn't so bad. In the hand in question there are 3 to a straight, 3 to a flush, a paired board and its all over the villains range. Just calling would seem the sensible option for the hero. No matter how much the villains donkishness has teed off the hero thats not a good enough reason to put more chips at risk if he wants to play the hand profitably.
If this is not good advice then fine argue why. That is the point of the forum but please without the hostility.

its as if you just look at a board and don't even try to evaluate betting patterns. what stakes do you play?

[bigspenda73]

new mod-title for nuts: MR. JERKFACE

[bigspenda73]

oooooh how about MR. JERKSTORE

[jackvance]

I dont really get all the hostility on this forum, (re some of the above comments) its seems very cliquey here and jargon/abbreviation crazy. If you dont agree with a post fine give a different opinion but is the hostility so necessary?
My post wasn't so bad. In the hand in question there are 3 to a straight, 3 to a flush, a paired board and its all over the villains range. Just calling would seem the sensible option for the hero. No matter how much the villains donkishness has teed off the hero thats not a good enough reason to put more chips at risk if he wants to play the hand profitably.
If this is not good advice then fine argue why. That is the point of the forum but please without the hostility.

Better start off posting in the beginners section, and if you hang out here longer in a month or so hopefully you will realize why your post wasn't that well-informed.

[bigred]

new mod-title for nuts: MR. JERKFACE

This would be hilarious. Do it radmin.

[DonkeyDonk]

its as if you just look at a board and don't even try to evaluate betting patterns.

Quote - (''62/15,this person didnt 3bet all night long and has been donking anything remotely connected to the board.'' )

only read on his donkbets is they are totally random. he donk/folds just as often as he donks/calls, only thing he didnt do was donk/3b.

Betting Paterns?? The posters statements above tells me nothing is going to be properly determined from the villains betting patterns.

If, as you suggest, raising $45 dollars and folding to a shove the hero would be folding with $56 remaining having invested $74 into a pot of approx $165 already in the middle. Is that a sensible outcome given the circumstances described?? It seems to me that you would be putting yourself into an unneccessarily difficult spot in this hand and I doubt that would be a good fold given the pot odds and the extent of doubt attached to the reliability of the villains erratic actions. Hence my reasoning for just calling in the first place.

[bigspenda73]

new mod-title for nuts: MR. JERKFACE

This would be hilarious. Do it radmin.

I'm actually liking Mr. JERKSTORE more if Nuts is a Seinfeld fan

[nutsinho]

so the fact that we know he probably has a ridiculously narrow range for lead-3betting the river makes that a tough spot for us with KK? please help me understand.

[bigspenda73]

BECAUSE IF WE RAIZE AND THEY RE-RAISE WE LOSE INSTEAD IF WE JUST CALL WE NEVER LOSE.

duh

[DonkeyDonk]

so the fact that we know he probably has a ridiculously narrow range for lead-3betting the river makes that a tough spot for us with KK? please help me understand.

I did explain there's enough evidence to suggest this player doesn't have a ridiculously narrow range.

[nutsinho]

there isnt ANY evidence to suggest that he will bet/3bet light in any situation, but you can call all in if you feel that way. avoiding tough decisions isnt an excuse to miss obvious value spots. the more tough decisions you are able to make accurately, the more money you will make. theres absolutely no way that we are behind his calling range if we minraise the river (can you argue with this?), so we need to raise some amount between the minimum and the maximum that extracts the most value. this guy is a terrible donk and we certainly want more than 6$ to go in on the river.

[DonkeyDonk]

there isnt ANY evidence to suggest that he will bet/3bet light in any situation, but you can call all in if you feel that way. avoiding tough decisions isnt an excuse to miss obvious value spots. the more tough decisions you are able to make accurately, the more money you will make. theres absolutely no way that we are behind his calling range if we minraise the river (can you argue with this?), so we need to raise some amount between the minimum and the maximum that extracts the most value. this guy is a terrible donk and we certainly want more than 6$ to go in on the river.

I agree a small raise may be better than the just a call