Villains Value or shove?

[jyms]

I have been noticing a trend lately and not sure if it's just me. It seems as though a ton of $100NL and $200NL players seem to be weighting there hands towards bluffs when they shove turns/rivers and are much more weighted towards good/top/monster hands when betting with value type bets.

Is it just a cause and effect of all the Bluff shoving/value betting conversations and posting that has people not noticing that they are doing this or again, is it just me?

[Da GOAT]

i dont get what your saying, please rephrase

[jyms]

It has just been appearing that when someone is shoving turns and rivers their range seems to be weighted more to a bluff and when they are making more standard 2/3 or so bets it seems that their ranges are more weighted to value bets with better/stronger hands. this is not to say that they would have more bluffing hands in their range than value hands, but the weight may need to be shifted even more than we have in the past. I myself have spent a lot of time reading about bluff shoving, 4bet bluff shoving and aggression/FE in general so I was wondering if this may be some sort of sign of the times where we can add more bluffs to a range when facing a shove. ie: much more polarized

Of course villain and board texture and all of our "it depends" thoughts are present but I think it is something to be looked at when defining ranges of certain opponents.

[BigPapi]

I would love to think this is true, but I have still not seen many regulars bluff shove. perhaps it's site depending

[Galapogos]

Probably just coincidence. I still see plenty of fishies check/min-raise the flop then just shove the turn.

Edit: meant to say with sets.

[XTR1000]

I have noticed nothing like that.

[v diddy]

Maybe your perception is skewed because you are only seeing the push bluffs and value monsters??

[jyms]

This is why I was asking, it's funny that I just happened to spend a ton of time lately reading about these very subjects and I am seeing a lot more of this behavior. It's probably just perception, but I thought I would put it out there for some to see if they notice anything.

It's also possible that with gaining a better understanding of these two subjects I do find the times when those opportunity's are being used more often and snapping off the bluffs better

[yourfather]

Alot of 100nl fish seem to be betting full pot w/ bluffs against me

[sinister1]

Alot of 100nl fish seem to be betting full pot w/ bluffs against me

I have noticed this too, in fact I usually just check the river and snap call when they pot and they never have it.

[JL]

Alot of 100nl fish seem to be betting full pot w/ bluffs against me

I have noticed this too, in fact I usually just check the river and snap call when they pot and they never have it.

Really?

I have noticed that when a fish hits the pot button on the river, he almost always has a hand.
However, if a fish pots the flop or turn, it's almost always a bluff.

This is of course read dependent. If villain is one who loves to slow play then a PSB on the flop or turn is probably a bluff.
However, there are some fish who play the nuts super fast. They are rare, but I have ran into a few guys that will pot the flop and over bet shove the turn with 2pair + type hands.

[JL]

Of course, developing specific reads on each player is always going to be so much better than just generalizing. I don't think it's a good idea to base your entire decision on bet sizing.

[yourfather]

Yes, obv player dependent and board dependent. Like 1/2 pot, 1/2 pot, full pot when draws don't get there is a fish's favorite line but not all fish are alike and generalizing too much can surely get you in trouble.

[sinister1]

Alot of 100nl fish seem to be betting full pot w/ bluffs against me

I have noticed this too, in fact I usually just check the river and snap call when they pot and they never have it.

Really?

I have noticed that when a fish hits the pot button on the river, he almost always has a hand.
However, if a fish pots the flop or turn, it's almost always a bluff.

This is of course read dependent. If villain is one who loves to slow play then a PSB on the flop or turn is probably a bluff.
However, there are some fish who play the nuts super fast. They are rare, but I have ran into a few guys that will pot the flop and over bet shove the turn with 2pair + type hands.

I guess I should have specified but more often than not it is when an obvious draw missed I just let them bluff at it. Or if I have under repped my hand by say checking the turn for pot control, I will just go ahead and check the river because I know they will not call my pot sized value bet but they will make one for me