Poker New Years Resolution Leak #1

[bigspenda73]

Before we get all of these going I would like everyone to understand one thing: as a group we are only as smart as our dumbest member. Some of the concepts/ideas that are discussed may seem unbelievably boring/easy/redundant to you; however, I can assure you that someone will need to hear them.

The number #1 leak that was constantly being repeated was a lack of being able to put our opponents on a range. There were many other important leaks, however, I feel a lot of them could be solved by improving our hand-reading skills.

I believe a lot of you can read hands, yet you lack the actual process or discipline to work through a hand range on each and every hand. Therefore, instead of posting 10 hand histories and having you tell me what someone's range is, I'm going to hopefully help you create a process that is simple and one that can be applied to each and every hand you play.

Step #1

First we must start with an entire hand range. If you do not have pokerstove or a pokerstove-like program here is what 100% of hands appear to be:

22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T2s+,92s+,82s+,72s+,62s+,5 2s+,42s+,32s,A2o+,K2o+,Q2o+,J2o+,T2o+,92o+,82o+,72 o+,62o+,52o+,42o+,32o

This is our initial working base. You do not have to memorize this range, just realize how wide/big it is and realize that it will take work to narrow it down to a tight range.

Step #2 coming soon to a Beg. Circle near you...

[kb coolman]

ooooh....

Anticipation!!!

[HarleyGuy13]

Spenda I am so looking forward to this. Like a giant cork waiting to be stuck in my Titanic...If that makes any since.

[kb coolman]

Like a giant cork waiting to be stuck in my Titanic

GAY, imo.

[IhaveTopTop]

Sounds good. I'm always looking to improve my hand reading skills, but never seem to make as much improvement as I would like.

[bigspenda73]

In the spirit of "help me help you" I'm not just going to type out some long-winded way to read hands. Instead, you're going to tell me what I already know.

Step #2

In order to narrow a hand-range down we must use a process-of-elimination of sorts. This all starts with Pre-Flop play. Let's list some criteria/examples/reasons to how we can start to narrow down this 100% range.

[Monty3038]

One method we can use is whether our opponent raises or calls the blind. A call indicates a wider range than a raise.

Also, we can use their position as a guide as well, later positions will raise wider ranges than early positions (if they know what they are doing).

Another way of narrowing their range is to use their VPIP and PFR stats... though I rely on it others warn me not to.

[celtic123]

ok,

we would be assuming he is ultra tight , unless we have reads to the contra?

And if we had reads, we would know what his EP range was , so eliminate starting hands like unconnecteds ?A2o+,K2o+,Q2o+,J2o+,T2o+,92o+,82o+,72o+,62o+,52o+ ,42o+,32o

If he is EP and tight , the lower end of the spectrum , we would ditch?

[geoffm33]

Another way of narrowing their range is to use their VPIP and PFR stats... though I rely on it others warn me not to.

I'd say given enough hands against an opponent, they can be reliable. As long as you have some showdown info to back it up as 20% may not be the top 20% of hands. Also, position will matter as 20% isn't 20% from all positions (as you mentioned).

And to add to the raise vs call, a reraise can help narrow even further.

[bigspenda73]

some good thoughts so far, keep 'em coming

[sil693]

1. history with you if you're playing against them in a hand.
2. board texture if they cbet (for example) , or you cbet and they call/raise.
3. The action before it gets to them (ie. are they the first limper/overlimping etc).

[bigspenda73]

Just PF for now Mr. 693

[celtic123]

ok, weve beeen keeping an eye on what they are opening/ calling /raising with and we have build a picture of how solid they are or are not.

Even if we havent always seen their cards, we,ve watched to see if they limp and fold to a min raise . therefore adjusting their ranges.

when we think we know what ranges they are on., and we have eliminated what we think they wont have , we see how many of flop cards hit their range and compare this to how we hit the flop, and we have a good guestimate of how often we are beat or ahead.

[bigspenda73]

Just PF for now Mr. 123

[angrystoc]

As well as the points mentioned so far, we can also shrink or expand their range based on the action before them.

People opening the pot tend to have a larger range than someone calling a raise e.g. Many players would open on the BTN with ATo but wouldn't call a raise. Speculative hands such as SCs and small-PP love to call behind multiple callers..

[celtic123]

ok, I didnt know or work wasnt done PF.

I have to logoff now for a while.

[bigspenda73]

As well as the points mentioned so far, we can also shrink or expand their range based on the action before them.

People opening the pot tend to have a larger range than someone calling a raise e.g. Many players would open on the BTN with ATo but wouldn't call a raise. Speculative hands such as SCs and small-PP love to call behind multiple callers..

good stuff

[Dueces88]

We also have to pay attention to how they react to certain other villains. They will probably call, with a wider range of hands, a PFR of a player who raises frequently rather than players who raise infrequently.

Thinking level matters as well. If a person is just playing their cards, they will probably play many hands just because it has a "face" card.

If they love the SOOOOOOOOTED stuff.

I think position was said. If they are OOP (and they know what they're doing), they're going to play a tighter range than IP.

Depends on how many other people are already in the pot, villians will play a wider range by limp/calling. If they raise limpers, their hand is a strong hand that loses strength if more and more people see the flop.

EDIT: Also, stack size

[IhaveTopTop]

Are we considering both cash and tournament hands?

Either way, we can often narrow or widen range based on the player's (and his opponent's) bet to stack ratio. In big stack NL ring games and earlier in tournaments, many players with try to see a flop with hands they would quickly fold later in tournaments or short stacked games.

[euphoricism]

This is just not the right way to go about doing this. I don't like to rip on people trying to help, but this is like the most confusing way possible to approach the topic because there are so many 'what ifs' to account for.

The easiest way imho is start with a baseline read (aka, what would I have if I was him?) and adjust for player tendency from there.

Ex1: Unknown person opens 4x UTG. The only logical way to approach giving him a range is to assign him the same range you have when YOU open UTG.

Ex2: Unknown LIMPS utg. Slightly different because you never limp UTG. So draw upon your experience of what other people who DO limp UTG usually do it with.

As for KNOWNS, you simply adjust what YOU would do to what THEY would do. If you run say 12/10 at FR and open {range} UTG, then you can make perfectly good assumptions about what a 15/12 opens UTG with (Hint: its basically identical due to position).

Just note the following
1) you can't really go wrong assigning a slightly too tight of a range to an unknown.
2) peoples ranges get wider as they get closer to the button. A 20/15s open UTG range is probably not too different from a 14/10s open UTG range. Their late position range, as well as their limping and cold calling range is probably wider.

That all comes into play LONG before you consider whether he likes SOOOOTED cards too much or anything even remotely that specific. Get a good baseline, and adjust from there. And the best person to get that baseline from is yourself.

This is called level two thinking.

[bigspenda73]

Are we considering both cash and tournament hands?

Either way, we can often narrow or widen range based on the player's (and his opponent's) bet to stack ratio. In big stack NL ring games and earlier in tournaments, many players with try to see a flop with hands they would quickly fold later in tournaments or short stacked games.

Interesting point, one which could help us read the ranges of short-stackers.

[bigspenda73]

This is just not the right way to go about doing this. I don't like to rip on people trying to help, but this is like the most confusing way possible to approach the topic because there are so many 'what ifs' to account for.

The easiest way imho is start with a baseline read (aka, what would I have if I was him?) and adjust for player tendency from there.

Ex1: Unknown person opens 4x UTG. The only logical way to approach giving him a range is to assign him the same range you have when YOU open UTG.

Ex2: Unknown LIMPS utg. Slightly different because you never limp UTG. So draw upon your experience of what other people who DO limp UTG usually do it with.

As for KNOWNS, you simply adjust what YOU would do to what THEY would do. If you run say 12/10 at FR and open {range} UTG, then you can make perfectly good assumptions about what a 15/12 opens UTG with (Hint: its basically identical due to position).

Just note the following
1) you can't really go wrong assigning a slightly too tight of a range to an unknown.
2) peoples ranges get wider as they get closer to the button. A 20/15s open UTG range is probably not too different from a 14/10s open UTG range. Their late position range, as well as their limping and cold calling range is probably wider.

That all comes into play LONG before you consider whether he likes SOOOOTED cards too much or anything even remotely that specific. Get a good baseline, and adjust from there. And the best person to get that baseline from is yourself.

This is called level two thinking.

yea, and the guy just starting at 5nl understands all of this just so easily.

[nibbles]

This shouldn't apply to FTR regs, but many players in the microstakes vary the size of raise depending on their hand. I have notes on a few people who mini raise AA/KK, and severely overbet (12 - 15 x BB) medium pocket pairs to deter callers. So...

1. Pre-flop bet sizing

[euphoricism]

Of course he does, don't insult people's intelligence. He knows what HE has when HE opens UTG because HE did it. Therefore he can, and should, expect other people do to basically the exact same thing. That's really all there is to this.

Pros call it "level two thinking"
Everyone else calls it "walking in someone else's shoes"

[Dueces88]

What I wrote was "in general" including what bad players would do, which is why I included "SOOOOOOOOOTED"

I also find it funny you gave guidelines for reacting to an unknown player and than say that applies before considering whether he likes "SOOOOOOOOOTED cards."

But if you knew he like "SOOOOOOOOTED cards," then you know something about him and you'd probably saw him showdown before, so he wouldn't be a complete unknown to you, so you're not making sense.

Nice try, though.

[Dueces88]

This is just not the right way to go about doing this. I don't like to rip on people trying to help, but this is like the most confusing way possible to approach the topic because there are so many 'what ifs' to account for.

The easiest way imho is start with a baseline read (aka, what would I have if I was him?) and adjust for player tendency from there.

Ex1: Unknown person opens 4x UTG. The only logical way to approach giving him a range is to assign him the same range you have when YOU open UTG.

Ex2: Unknown LIMPS utg. Slightly different because you never limp UTG. So draw upon your experience of what other people who DO limp UTG usually do it with.

As for KNOWNS, you simply adjust what YOU would do to what THEY would do. If you run say 12/10 at FR and open {range} UTG, then you can make perfectly good assumptions about what a 15/12 opens UTG with (Hint: its basically identical due to position).

Just note the following
1) you can't really go wrong assigning a slightly too tight of a range to an unknown.
2) peoples ranges get wider as they get closer to the button. A 20/15s open UTG range is probably not too different from a 14/10s open UTG range. Their late position range, as well as their limping and cold calling range is probably wider.

That all comes into play LONG before you consider whether he likes SOOOOTED cards too much or anything even remotely that specific. Get a good baseline, and adjust from there. And the best person to get that baseline from is yourself.

This is called level two thinking.

Also (I'm gonna quote you this time so you know I'm addressing you), this thread is reading hands in general. People are listing points where you know something about the person you're dealing with.

If he's unknown, you do not always just consider what you yourself would do. You also have to consider the stake you're playing at.

[bigspenda73]

Of course he does, don't insult people's intelligence.

precisely what I was doing, I apologize to you Euph

[euphoricism]

What I wrote was "in general" including what bad players would do, which is why I included "SOOOOOOOOOTED"

I also find it funny you gave guidelines for reacting to an unknown player and than say that applies before considering whether he likes "SOOOOOOOOOTED cards."

But if you knew he like "SOOOOOOOOTED cards," then you know something about him and you'd probably saw him showdown before, so he wouldn't be a complete unknown to you, so you're not making sense.

Nice try, though.

I take it back, Spenda, they really are retarded.
Carry on.

[Dueces88]

What I wrote was "in general" including what bad players would do, which is why I included "SOOOOOOOOOTED"

I also find it funny you gave guidelines for reacting to an unknown player and than say that applies before considering whether he likes "SOOOOOOOOOTED cards."

But if you knew he like "SOOOOOOOOTED cards," then you know something about him and you'd probably saw him showdown before, so he wouldn't be a complete unknown to you, so you're not making sense.

Nice try, though.

I take it back, Spenda, they really are retarded.
Carry on.

This doesn't even deserve a serious response, because you clearly do not understand my point.

But hey, think what you want. It's just amusing to me

[Monty3038]

Are we considering both cash and tournament hands?

Either way, we can often narrow or widen range based on the player's (and his opponent's) bet to stack ratio. In big stack NL ring games and earlier in tournaments, many players with try to see a flop with hands they would quickly fold later in tournaments or short stacked games.

Interesting point, one which could help us read the ranges of short-stackers.

Hmm... having moved from tournaments to cash, I can definately see a need for both being split out. Factors in tournaments like stack size greatly affect hand range.

Someone mentioned bet sizing, let me mention RAISE sizing... someone who 3-bets has a wider range pre-flop than someone who SHOVEs deep stacked...

[euphoricism]

someone who 3-bets has a wider range pre-flop than someone who SHOVEs deep stacked...

Rule #1 is no more sweeping generalizations. That's the point.

[settecba]

something impotant that is not mentioned yet is OUR table image, especially when we are the PF raiser. A lot of players widen their range hugely when we raise 2 or 3 hands in a row. They add unsuited connectors, gappers, Axs, Kxs, A7o+ to their range, or something like that. This applies to the regular fishes out there, not to regs.

I'd say go for too wide over too narrow.

say 40/0 over 100 hands limps UTG
I'd say it's ok to say XXs, all connectors, all 1 or 2 gappers, Ax, Kxs, Q8o+, Q7s+, all pairs

so what if he doesn't play 72s because someone taught him that 72 = bad

say we raise and he calls
if he doesn't always call after a raise, maybe we can narrow it down to suited 3 gappers, suited cards where one is a jack or better, connectors,1/2 gappers, Ax, Kxs, all pairs
doesn't matter if he plays a slightly different range

but if he cold min 4b you he has QQ+, AK weighed heavily toward AA

[bigspenda73]

You guys are taking it one step too far still.

I'm not asking for hands, I'm asking for ways to narrow down (or eliminate hands from) the range.

Frankly there are like 3 types of people (I wish I could think of better names for these people, hope these don't stick)

A. Total unknowns
---players who we have never seen play a hand nor have stats on
B. Relatively known
--players we have seen play a few pots or have 5-50 hands on
C. Marked players
--players we have played many hands with or have 50+ hands on

It is much easier to put Player C on a range of hands than players B, it's easier to put Player B on a range than Player A. Why? INFORMATION.

Unfortunately we are not always blessed with the knowledge that a certain villain is 20/15 over 400 hands. Therefore there must be ways to help us understand an unknown's PF hand-range. Here are just some of the factors I use:

{If anyone has anymore feel free to tell us}

1. Opponent's stack-size
--20bb, 33bb, 50bb, 62bb, 100bb+. All of these stack-sizes could give us a lot of information on our opponent's PF tendencies. What are some generalizations we could infer from these stack-sizes?

2. Opponent's opening size
-limp,2bb,3bb,pot,4bb,5bb+. All of these initial PF raise sizes could tell us a lot about our opponents. What are some generalizations we could infer from these opening raise sizes?

3. Opponent's position
-EP,MP,LP,Blinds. All of these positions could affect our opponent's hand-range. How do we feel each spot affects their range?

4. Re-raising and 3bet size
-An opponent's 3betting size could tell us a lot about them. What could we infer from different 3bet sizes?

The better handle we get on someone's PF range the easier hand-reading will become on later streets.

Before this thread goes further I want it known that this is not the only way to do this; however, I feel doing it this way will open up the most discussion and get the majority of the newer players into the conversation. Others are more than welcome to voice their opinion on this matter however I am not going to tolerate any more negative remarks. Posts attempting to derail the discussion will be split and deleted from the beginner's circle.

[ginozola]

Thanks for this thread. There's some good writing in here. It's helping me attempt to think about how I'm playing. Here are my thoughts on this.

1. Opponent's stack-size
--20bb, 33bb, 50bb, 62bb, 100bb+. All of these stack-sizes could give us a lot of information on our opponent's PF tendencies. What are some generalizations we could infer from these stack-sizes?

If I'm up against a deep-stacked player I include a wider range of hands than I do if the player has a small-stack, giving the deep-stack more hands with drawing value. I've seen smaller stacks playing (gen. pushing) wide ranges though that's often through tilt. If they've been around a while, I'd tighten their range, excluding the lower end of drawing hands, including more higher card holdings, i.e. to a short-stacked player ATo is more in their raise to open than 87s, either in position or UTG.

For mid-stacks, 33bb-62bb I'd struggling to link their stack-size to their opening range much beyond a general range of solid hands OOP, getting wider with position.

2. Opponent's opening size
-limp,2bb,3bb,pot,4bb,5bb+. All of these initial PF raise sizes could tell us a lot about our opponents. What are some generalizations we could infer from these opening raise sizes?

It's rare I have good reads/stats available on the players at the tables I play, so without evidence I'm QQ+ limpers a tiny fraction of my range. If someone limps UTG I'm including small-mid PPs/mid-strong suited hands, still a wide range. In later position, players can open limp with a huge range.

I include a wider range of hands when a player raises 2BB than when they raise a bigger amount. Players generally know they need to be aggressive and look to steal, but they do so with a minimum raise with hands they are not comfortable with. I'd expect AA almost as often with an open limp than with a 2bb raise.

3bb/pot-sized raises I'm again unsure. It seems fairly standard so I cannot assign a specific range based specifically on their raise. I'd expect better hands to raise 4bb+ than 2bb+ without stats/evidence, so I have a tighter range of hands as my expectation.

3. Opponent's position
-EP,MP,LP,Blinds. All of these positions could affect our opponent's hand-range. How do we feel each spot affects their range?

EP I'm including a smaller range of hands, increasing from UTG to the BB. Players generally know about position and adjust, even if they do not realise they are doing so. If somebody open raises, I'm including a smaller range of hands than if they open-limp.

If I don't know anything about a player I'll err on the side of caution, but blinds can be very loose, playing almost any two cards, especially if there is a raise and/or a couple of limpers.

4. Re-raising and 3bet size
-An opponent's 3betting size could tell us a lot about them. What could we infer from different 3bet sizes?

Without any previous info. to go with a player, I tighen my range a lot when an opp. re-raises/3-bets. If I raise from EP and I'm called by the button, I can include a wide range of hands that the button is playing. If the button re-raises, even taking into account his position I'm still tightening up what I hands he can hold. I'm not suggesting I only see aces, but if it's the first time he's done it then I'm slowing up and looking at my next move carefully.

3-bet size is interesting. I'd put a large 3-bet on a tighter range than a smaller 3-bet, but I have no real reason to back this up.

Good thread. Keep it coming!

[mrhappy333]

I like Euph way of thinking about this, It may not be perfect but its a Huge help. but I will take my own stab at this because its a new year and I want to stop hovering at 25 cent poker.
soooo....

1. Opponents stack sizes:
20bb I am thinking SS piece of shit GTFO the table
33bb/50bb still short but but not terrible
62bb possible good player who lost some chips and hasn't reloaded
100bb+ these are the ones I need to be careful with, because I also am Full stacked all the time.

2.. Opponent's opening size
limp= alot of stuff here Axs,Kxs,XXs, BW's, Suited gappers, Any paint, sm PP's, sometimes AA/KK
min raise= same as limp
3bb,pot,4bb= I think I need to reduce the range here, AK, AA,KK,QQ,JJ, maybe PP's down to 88 but not usually.

All of these Limp/Raises ranges are affected by their position also.

4. Re-raising and 3bet size
re raising and 3 or 4 betting narrows my range down big. usually AA,KK,QQ, sometimes AK, AQ, but this is also stack size dependent.
the small stacks can be pushing here with a much larger range.

[Illfavor]

1. Opponent's stack-size
--20bb, 33bb, 50bb, 62bb, 100bb+. All of these stack-sizes could give us a lot of information on our opponent's PF tendencies. What are some generalizations we could infer from these stack-sizes?

20bb- Usually really bad players. The may tighten up due to the short stack, but their range is still probably really wide. I've noticed these players tend to limp fairly wide ranges, and are still not shy of calling raises either. These are very often players just trying to double up and get a big stack for little initial deposit, so they play lots of hands and try to hit gin on the flop.

33bb- Very similar to 20 bb, and might be a 20bb player who doubled up. A greater chance it's a tighter player who got beat and didn't reload.

50bb- The higher the stack, generally the tighter the player is I think. I still don't give much respect to a 50bb player b/c it's extremely unlikely they're intentionally shortstacking, but it's now getting into the "protect my stack" range a little.

62bb- I think I see 75bb players more often, but it's about the same. They are, again, more likely to be tighter and could very easily be pretty TAG players. If they are tight, they are probably less willing to stack off with marginal hands (2nd pair and stuff) so they're conceivably calling with fewer 2nd pair making hands like J9o.

100bb- Could be a good player. Could have just started the session. I usually check these players to see how many tables they're playing, which obviously changes my perception of them. 5+ tables and they're probably not getting too out of line preflop. A few tables don't really mean that much, though I have noticed that most really bad players are only playing one table at a time.

[kfaess]

My thoughts:

The following answers are based on an unknown player and are obviously subject to change once you have more information.

1. Opponent's stack size:
Short stack- Assuming that the player knows how to play a short stack correctly, I would put the short stack on a tighter range of hands since they don't have implied odds to play suited connectors and small pp's. I would expect them to try and get it in with TPTK and TPGK type hands on the flop and turn. Many players in the micro stakes do not know how to play a short stack correctly though, and so sometimes I change these assumptions.
Med stack- Wider range than a short stack but tighter range than a full stack because some hands cannot be played profitably without implied odds.
Full stack- A player with a full stack can play suited connector and suited gapper type hands profitably so these are added to the players range. A player who buys in for a full stack is more likely to be a decent player or a reg but I've still seen 75% VPIP from full stacks at 10NL.

2. Opponents opening size:
Without any reads I assume that a limp has a much wider range than a raise. In theory we want to play big pots with our big hands and small pots with our marginal hands, so generally the bigger the raise the tighter the range I assume. Sometimes people will go against theory for deception, (e.g. making a min raise with aces and hoping for a 3-bet) so this is heavily read dependent.

3. Opponents position:
Assuming our opponents are paying attention to position (which may not be the case for some opponents at 10NL where I play) then the closer to the button the wider their range become and the farthur from the button the tighter their range becomes.

4. Re-raising and 3-bet size:
I generally assume the larger the bet the tighter their range is because people usually play big pots with big hands. Again this point is very read dependent. For example, one player may 3-bet small with a strong hand and another player might do it as a bluff.

[Kijjo]

Ever since I began to think of poker as a game of strategy instead of a game of luck I've viewed things similar to the way Euph describes. I am my baseline. I know what I would do, what I consider good poker. As I develop my poker knowledge and skill that baseline changes, but I still see my opponents in comparison to my own mindset.
Mainly I use this in note-taking. Why take notes on lots of hands that are played well, played exactly the way you would play them? Simply write something like "plays solid xx type hands, good positional play, good raising..." or whatever. The vaste majority of my notes are about things that I see people do that deviate from my understanding of good poker "too tight, too aggressive, bluffs too much..." etc.
So what does this have to do with this discussion? As we sit down with unknowns, I view them as a blank slate equal to me. As I note differences, I adjust my view of them, tightening or loosening their ranges based on the factors mentioned above (% of hands played, % of times coming in for raise, bet sizing, etc.).

[Keith]

should we make any allowance for whether the opponent had just taken a bad beat or won a big pot. Will either one put a person on tilt and open up there range or even narrow down there range and how long would this effect last for? In the past when i've taken a bad beat/big loss I will only play the real premium hands for the next couple of hands so that I can calm down , not spew off any chips and run through the hand in my head trying to work out where I went wrong. Other people go on tilt and try and win back there losses in the next hand.
.

[euphoricism]

should we make any allowance for whether the opponent had just taken a bad beat or won a big pot. Will either one put a person on tilt and open up there range or even narrow down there range and how long would this effect last for? In the past when i've taken a bad beat/big loss I will only play the real premium hands for the next couple of hands so that I can calm down , not spew off any chips and run through the hand in my head trying to work out where I went wrong. Other people go on tilt and try and win back there losses in the next hand.
.

Yes... but this is sooooo far beyond the purvey of this thread that I can't help but think 90% of you guys are missing the entire fricken point

[celtic123]

the basis of this thread is to help people like me think about putting ppl on ranges.

there are a few tangent posts popping in with extremely strong exceptions to the "rule" , but im keeping focused on what this thread is trying to achieve.

Its doing it for me .I need the guidence.

[OhBollocks]

Like a giant cork waiting to be stuck in my Titanic

GAY, imo.

+1

Great to see this is leak thread #1. Ill be chiming in tomorra.

[daven]

a few pre-requisites to range work

1) know there are 1326 hand combinations. Know that these include pocket pairs (13 x 6), and non-pairs (78x16 - where the 16 is 12offsuited and 4 suited)
see spoons great teaching post here http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...tc-t75711.html

also consider that 6/1326 is about 0.5%, so the chances of being dealt AA is about this. Do the numbers for suited and non-suited combos.

2) Know that players will play different hands in different ways e.g. who plays AA and T4o the same pre-flop? about nobody.

3) note that poker is a game of trying to make perfect decisions based on incomplete information - the better the information to inform your decisions, the better your game can be. Getting a narrow(er) read on opponent's range is key to this.

for all players you can use:
stack size
position
action
style of game (LHE vs NL, 6-max vs FR, etc)
stakes

to help narrow player's range


against known players you can use further information available to you about this player to further assist in range-setting.
This information includes:
Common stats - VPIP, PFR, 3-bet %, reaction to 3-bet, steal %, indicators of positional range variation, blind defence % and style.

Extra info may include - notes you have taken, e.g. open limps small pocket pairs. Also other history, e.g. 3-bets me wide ip, folds to 4-bets frequently.

Actions pre-flop include:
open-limping
limping behind
open-raising
iso-raising
3-betting
cold-calling
4-betting

combining this information helps to narrow range. Three examples

1) a 100bb 14-10 25nl reg who has a 3-bet range of AA/KK/AKs has a cold-calling range almost entirely comprised of pocket pairs and a small amount of AQs/AKo/balance. How do we know this?

2) An 83bb 64-23 relative unknown has an open limping range that could be almost ATC weak holdings. How do we know this?

3) A 16-7 who open limps immediately has a range narrowed to 22-99, some TT?, some Axs, some SCs. When they subsequently call a decent iso-raise, their range becomes biased towards pocket pairs.


Also, below is important and another useful tool

The easiest way imho is start with a baseline read (aka, what would I have if I was him?) and adjust for player tendency from there.

Ex1: Unknown person opens 4x UTG. The only logical way to approach giving him a range is to assign him the same range you have when YOU open UTG.

Ex2: Unknown LIMPS utg. Slightly different because you never limp UTG. So draw upon your experience of what other people who DO limp UTG usually do it with.

As for KNOWNS, you simply adjust what YOU would do to what THEY would do. If you run say 12/10 at FR and open {range} UTG, then you can make perfectly good assumptions about what a 15/12 opens UTG with (Hint: its basically identical due to position).

Just note the following
1) you can't really go wrong assigning a slightly too tight of a range to an unknown.
2) peoples ranges get wider as they get closer to the button. A 20/15s open UTG range is probably not too different from a 14/10s open UTG range. Their late position range, as well as their limping and cold calling range is probably wider.

This is called level two thinking.

this is gold eupho



I only want to comment on one other post

1. Opponents stack sizes:
20bb I am thinking SS piece of shit GTFO the table
33bb/50bb still short but but not terrible
62bb possible good player who lost some chips and hasn't reloaded
100bb+ these are the ones I need to be careful with, because I also am Full stacked all the time.

this is a very dangerous thought process. Play equally as carefully with all players. Good 20bb players understand poker well, and won't be leaving. 100+bb players are ones you most want to exploit, but not be scared of cos you're playing well. My favourite flavour of fish is 220bb deep, with me 120bb deep. That's because i get uncomfortable deep against players i find unpredictable

[Monty3038]

First off, thanks to all who have replied, it has gotten me thinking, but now that we have a few replies, I'd like to hear Spenda's thoughts on narrowing the ranges based on the replies here... also any thoughts on effective ways of 'practicing' reading till you feel you get better at it, pouring over hand histories and applying reads doesn't seem to be making it more reasonable or quicker for me.

[spoonitnow]

First off, thanks to all who have replied, it has gotten me thinking, but now that we have a few replies, I'd like to hear Spenda's thoughts on narrowing the ranges based on the replies here... also any thoughts on effective ways of 'practicing' reading till you feel you get better at it, pouring over hand histories and applying reads doesn't seem to be making it more reasonable or quicker for me.

Here's an idea: Find three players with similar VP$IP/PFR stats in your database that you have a few thousand hands on. Look at what they each play from each position.

[TLR]

I think we should narrow down what we are discussing, since this thread is going off in a lot of tangents, I would suggest to start with a basic scenario and expand it as we go along.

I think the most basic scenario is 1st hand of a tournament (everyone even stacked) when you have 0 reads on any player. Try to define a generic open range for different positions, and go from there

[Monty3038]

First off, thanks to all who have replied, it has gotten me thinking, but now that we have a few replies, I'd like to hear Spenda's thoughts on narrowing the ranges based on the replies here... also any thoughts on effective ways of 'practicing' reading till you feel you get better at it, pouring over hand histories and applying reads doesn't seem to be making it more reasonable or quicker for me.

Here's an idea: Find three players with similar VP$IP/PFR stats in your database that you have a few thousand hands on. Look at what they each play from each position.

Excellent Idea Spoon, I will add it to my training plan.

[spoonitnow]

I think we should narrow down what we are discussing, since this thread is going off in a lot of tangents, I would suggest to start with a basic scenario and expand it as we go along.

I think the most basic scenario is 1st hand of a tournament (everyone even stacked) when you have 0 reads on any player. Try to define a generic open range for different positions, and go from there

Do not question the BC moderator!

[bigspenda73]

sowwy guys I've been busy breaking even this month

I'll post something later

[bigspenda73]

Alright, completely thrilled that I'm grinding donkaments and am up a whole $400 this month let's gogogogo.

I completely understand what Euph/TLR/Spoon are trying to say when they want us to start with more of a defined range and then expand/decrease it based on information we'll gain. In a sense that is exactly what we'll be doing, we just haven't arrived at that part of the process yet.

What I'm trying to help everyone realize is that 80% of the people reading this thread don't know what that defined range is or who is should be applied to. By looking at some of the PF characteristics of players (stack size, PF raising size, etc..) we might get a better handle on the type of player we are up against thus making the initial range we have for them closer to the ultimate truth.

So my first step, as always, is trying to get a handle quickly on my opponent's PF range by assessing what type of player they appear to be.

I look at stack-size a lot. Basically anyone not buying in full sucks at poker. Why? Well, because if they didn't suck at poker they could afford to buy-in full. Exceptions are 20BB nits who annoy us all and Fnord when he's half-stacking. If someone buys in with some akward stack-size we can infer that it's more than likely their entire bankroll, hence, they are probably not very good. How does this translate into hand ranges? Well, we can automatically assign a few characteristics to a bad player's range.

Brace yourself for some generalizations. For one, we know bad players are not positionally aware. Two, we know bad players generally play too wide a range from all spots, but especially out of position. Understanding these concepts will help us down the road when we're trying to exploit their ranges.

How about PF raise-size. 4x to me is the biggest sign of a TAGG/regular in a game. Seeing someone 4x will help us assign them a range much like we might play. Another note, people who change their raise size on the button vs. other spots tend to be regulars/thinking players. So, for more generalizations...this type of players tend to be positionally aware, plays a tight range OOP, etc....much like us.

PF 3-betting size can be a giveaway, players 4x'ing a PF raise tend to be taggnits or bots. People who undersize their 3bets (like 2.5x or less) tend to be bad players that haven't read that 3x-4x is what all the cool kids are doing on the poker forums. Also, players we may have identified as regulars 3betting a smaller amount generally means they are 3betting a wider range.

I'll hopefully keep adding to this thread and others have already sparked some discussion, as long as we keep it civil I'm happy.

[spoonitnow]

What I'm trying to help everyone realize is that 80% of the people reading this thread are more confused than when they started because of the lack of structure.

[bigspenda73]

You're right Spoon, I'm done.

You can post all you want and I'll keep moderating this forum.

Gl 2 FTR.

[Keith]

How about PF raise-size. 4x to me is the biggest sign of a TAGG/regular in a game. Seeing someone 4x will help us assign them a range much like we might play. Another note, people who change their raise size on the button vs. other spots tend to be regulars/thinking players. So, for more generalizations...this type of players tend to be positionally aware, plays a tight range OOP, etc....much like us.

PF 3-betting size can be a giveaway, players 4x'ing a PF raise tend to be taggnits or bots. People who undersize their 3bets (like 2.5x or less) tend to be bad players that haven't read that 3x-4x is what all the cool kids are doing on the poker forums. Also, players we may have identified as regulars 3betting a smaller amount generally means they are 3betting a wider range.

other forums i've read in the past,have seemed to say to go for 3x for a preflop raise and that 3 betting 2.5x is just as likely to be effective but risking less chips. Is this just a difference of opinion on different forums or has 'current' thinking moved on and adapted to past advice.

[hangchiong]

Im a still learning 25NL person hoping to make 50NL in 3-4 months.But im willing to learn from this thread.Just that the thread died down the past week.

From what I've seen,this is where i summarize from all post

PF-Ranges(factors)
1.Stack size
100bb-full stack(normally a good thinking player,than those playing with weird bb.We narrow down the ranges usually from a 100bb full stack,but of course with some hands play(VPIP and PF stats)

2.Position
Ranges loosen down as we go down on position
(UTG to BTN)

3.3bet size
3x and 4x seems to be the normal size.Any overbets or minbets or underbets signals strength more than weakness

4.Opening size
3xbb or 4xbb seems to be the regular opening.Although odd opening size might signals strength or weakness

5.Limping/Cold calling
Limping signals a very wide range from a person,as to where cold calling might signals a smaller range than limping.

Hope spendaa would reply on this.As i would like this thread to continue.If not,i wouldnt mind taking it on pm.

[mrhappy333]

You're right Spoon, I'm done.

You can post all you want and I'll keep moderating this forum.

Gl 2 FTR.

Spenda, please come back. Please don't let the opinion of one person ruin halping so many people. please,please,please.

[Sir Pawnalot]

This is just not the right way to go about doing this. I don't like to rip on people trying to help, but this is like the most confusing way possible to approach the topic because there are so many 'what ifs' to account for.

The easiest way imho is start with a baseline read (aka, what would I have if I was him?) and adjust for player tendency from there.

Ex1: Unknown person opens 4x UTG. The only logical way to approach giving him a range is to assign him the same range you have when YOU open UTG.

Ex2: Unknown LIMPS utg. Slightly different because you never limp UTG. So draw upon your experience of what other people who DO limp UTG usually do it with.

As for KNOWNS, you simply adjust what YOU would do to what THEY would do. If you run say 12/10 at FR and open {range} UTG, then you can make perfectly good assumptions about what a 15/12 opens UTG with (Hint: its basically identical due to position).

Just note the following
1) you can't really go wrong assigning a slightly too tight of a range to an unknown.
2) peoples ranges get wider as they get closer to the button. A 20/15s open UTG range is probably not too different from a 14/10s open UTG range. Their late position range, as well as their limping and cold calling range is probably wider.

That all comes into play LONG before you consider whether he likes SOOOOTED cards too much or anything even remotely that specific. Get a good baseline, and adjust from there. And the best person to get that baseline from is yourself.

This is called level two thinking.

You can not make assumptions about villains based on what "you" would have done. Besides, "assigning a to tight range" is a mistake which can be exploited by villain.

A side note about putting people on ranges:

I think people often forget to add "likelyhood" into villains range. F.ex if AK is much more probable than AJ in villains pocket you must remember to add that into the equation. This is more important on the turn when you should have more information about villains hand than he has about your.