50NL AJo 3bet cold called, cbet Qhigh flop?

[minSim]

Villain was unknown at the time as I was at the table for only a few hands. (note; it's BB calling, not the preflop raiser)

Is this actually an easy flop c/f?
Are these 3bet coldcalls almost always like AQ/JJ/TT/KK/AA, possibly also 99/AJs/KQ/AK at lower stakes?

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.50(BB) Replayer Game#24221372533

Hero ($50)
BB ($54.45)
UTG ($33.55)
CO ($17.20)
BTN ($49.25)

Dealt to Hero AJ
fold, fold, BTN raises to $2, Hero raises to $7, call, fold,

FLOP ($16) 4Q8
Hero bets $10, BB raises to $47.45, Hero folds,

[jackvance]

Are these 3bet coldcalls almost always like AQ/JJ/TT/KK/AA, possibly also 99/AJs/KQ/AK at lower stakes?

Not always, I remember one hand where I called your 3bet with 46o and to my surprise you checked it down to the river so I bet you out there. But in general I agree with your range assessment, although the stronger part of that range can be 4betting. There are some loose players that call them with any crap they raised with but they're usually easy to spot..

[noble007]

I think bet folding is fine at lower stakes vs unknown.
A few donkish players will call with pp or sc thinking that the button will come along too and somehow think this gives them implied odds to do it.

I hope a bet on the flop will fold out AK & maybe JJ.

(AA,KK,QQ,TT,AQ & AdKd will obv stay in.)
But there are 11 combos of AK(not AdKd) left & 3 combos of JJ left.
There are 3 combos of AA,6 combos of KK,9 combos of AQ, 3 combos of QQ, 3 combos of TT & 1 combo of AdKd

So I think you fold 14 combos and 25 combos stay in
or 14/39 or 36% of his range.
so 10 into 16
36 x he folds (+576) 64 x he calls/raises and you mostly lose (-640)
so -64/100 ev = -64 cents per hand

On second thought it looks kinda marginal now, but I still think it's better to err on the side of aggression in marginal spots. + there might be more crap in his range he might fold to.

[thizzSantaCruz]

Are these 3bet coldcalls almost always like AQ/JJ/TT/KK/AA, possibly also 99/AJs/KQ/AK at lower stakes?

Not always, I remember one hand where I called your 3bet with 46o and to my surprise you checked it down to the river so I bet you out there. But in general I agree with your range assessment, although the stronger part of that range can be 4betting. There are some loose players that call them with any crap they raised with but they're usually easy to spot..

lol this is so bad.

[minSim]

Are these 3bet coldcalls almost always like AQ/JJ/TT/KK/AA, possibly also 99/AJs/KQ/AK at lower stakes?

Not always, I remember one hand where I called your 3bet with 46o and to my surprise you checked it down to the river so I bet you out there. But in general I agree with your range assessment, although the stronger part of that range can be 4betting. There are some loose players that call them with any crap they raised with but they're usually easy to spot..

lol this is so bad.

You want to elaborate a bit?

[mcatdog]

Does someone really need to elaborate on why calling 3bets with 46o is bad?

[bigspenda73]

Does someone really need to elaborate on why calling 3bets with 46o is bad?

It would seem like the kind of person that needs it explained to them wouldn't know what to do with the information anyways, so I'm going to go with no.

[will641]

i think on the flop you could really go either way vs an unknown.

[minSim]

Not always, I remember one hand where I called your 3bet with 46o and to my surprise you checked it down to the river so I bet you out there. But in general I agree with your range assessment, although the stronger part of that range can be 4betting. There are some loose players that call them with any crap they raised with but they're usually easy to spot..

lol this is so bad.

Does someone really need to elaborate on why calling 3bets with 46o is bad?

I actually meant the second part of Jackvance's reply as his whole post was quoted as being bad. But might have misunderstood something.

[bjsaust]

This is the problem with 3-betting a hand like AJ for value in the SB.

[griffey24]

I think whether I bet this flop or not completely depends on the villain.

If villain is like 45/10 or some nonsense like that, then I definitely bet this flop. If he's some kind of reg, or tagg or something then I c/f.

Given he's unknown, I probably just c/f.

[noble007]

This is the problem with 3-betting a hand like AJ for value in the SB.

Maybe, but I think if the flop was A84, you c-bet and got shoved on - then it would demonstrate the problem of 3-betting a hand like AJ for value in the sb.

For me this is just about making a decision on a flop that you missed.
You'd be in the same situation if you 3bet a low pp or sc and missed this flop.

Personally I like 3betting a more linear range than most
but I'm sure that's a whole other post

[Silly String]

Are these 3bet coldcalls almost always like AQ/JJ/TT/KK/AA, possibly also 99/AJs/KQ/AK at lower stakes?

Yes. In this situation, I c/f flop.
Keep in mind the deeper the effective stacks get people with some poker understanding will start calling w/ PPs to set hunt.

[bode]

dont 3bet AJ vs an unknown and you'll stay out of situations like this.

[bjsaust]

This is quite different from 3-betting a low PP or SC in the blinds and missing. It has to do with ranges and what we did by 3-betting in the first place.

[minSim]

dont 3bet AJ vs an unknown and you'll stay out of situations like this.

I agree with this.

The downside is that with the playerpool at my stakes at Stars, usually 4/5 players at my tables are unknown when it comes to 3bet pots.
And with the general player at my stakes calling a shitload IP against a blinds 3bet, not 3betting AJ seems to be missing a lot of value when I often dominate villains AT/J8s+/KJo.

I think the standard player at my stakes plays something like this from LP:
PFR: +-25
Call 3bet: +- 60
4bet: KK+/sometimes AK.

While we can disagree about those numbers, don't you agree that 3betting AJ against those ranges is pretty standard?

[kettleofish]

That's a pretty huge (and dangerous) generalisation to make tho, especially when you first sit down at a table.

[GatorJH]

I think the key here minSim is that you JUST sat down at the table. I most certainly agree that at 50NL on Stars you will only have any decent amount of history for 1 MAYBE 2 players in any given session. However, I tend to play fairly tight (and therefore wouldn't 3bet AJo here) for the first half hour or so until I get a somewhat decent read on the players at the table.

[bjsaust]

Position matters.

[minSim]

Good points, I'll give it a go.

While it certainly deserves it's own thread, once we call preflop OOP;
do you guys like a c/c flop-lead turn-lead river line with QJ/KJ/AJ on a Jxxxx board, against non-overaggressive players ?

[bjsaust]

I often take that kind of line with TPTK in a 3-bet pot on relatively dry flops.

[minSim]

Sorry, I meant that line a single raised pot, once we call OOP instead of 3bet.

I'll edit my post.