Mission: Become a poker player - via FTR

[LuckySlevin]

Welcome to my blog, these pages chart my journey as I attempt to develop into a winning online poker player. This first post was a list of goals, but the goals were superceded - and have been replaced elsewhere in my op (below). So I've decided to hijack this first post to fill with a brief summary of where I am at, and a compilation of any phrases I care to remember - I'm finding more and more lately so am putting them here so they are the first thing I see when I enter this op!

where I'm at
I've returned from a hiatus and am looking forward to knuckling down and developing my poker game with the help of FTR.

Meaningful Quotes
It is mind, therefore, which overcomes environment and every other obstacle in the path of men. - MKS

The cardinal sin in poker, worse than playing bad cards, worse even than figuring your odds incorrectly, is becoming emotionally involved. - Katy Lederer

No one gets anywhere in this business unless they're prepared to give one hundred percent, twenty-four-seven. - Britania High

[redpalo]

I challenge you to post only hands you lost because I think you usually only post hands you won stupidly, asking things like "did I play this good" then arguing with people who say no.

Ack I posted advice to your thread. I need to put my nose on the doornob a few more times to build up my willpower.

But anyway good luck Slev YOU CAN DO IT I HAVE FAITH!

[spoonitnow]

What is Battle Borris?

[LuckySlevin]

http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/prom.../battle-boris/

It's a series of freerolls that if you win the prize is playing Borris Becker heads up in the Bahamas over at the PCA, if you make the first round you play in round 2, with small cash prizes for 10-200, and grand final tickets for 1-9. The grand final has 3 trips to the bahamas for 1-3 to play Borris heads up, and if you beat borris in the bahamas you get a PCA seat cash prizes for the next 54 finishers. Not easy to qualify for the second round as there's only 50 seats to round two in each first round free roll and 25,000 entrants - going to give it a try though

[LuckySlevin]

Well I didn't have a bankroll today (or this week) which is why I was thinking about the freerolls, but that's a good point. If anything I think they may be detrimental to my game because theres so little chance of getting anything decent from them (at least the huge ones on stars). So I'm taking your advice and scrapping the freerolls for now.

I'm going to deposit $105 on stars tomorrow which will be my main bankroll, I'm also going to be grinding a small bankroll up out of a no deposit bonus I have due soon on tony g poker.

Stars will be my main focus though. I've worked out $105 because I'm going to be playing $5 + 0.50 SNGs and according to DavSimons guide I should play with 15 buy ins.

The extra 3 x 7.50 is for 3 goes at climbing the PCA steps programme.

Current Goals.
1. Play at least 10 $5 + 0.50 SNGs a day, for six days.
2. Under no circumstances with this bankroll play anything apart from the 5 + .50 SNGS and 3 attempts at PCA steps.
3. Study (in depth) at least 1 new strategy article every day, six days a week.
4.Post a trimmed tournament on day one of the op (which funds permitting will be tomorrow) and benefit from peoples comments on the hands.

I'm looking forward to tomorrow, the above goals - should ensure I get things done properly, particulary numbers 2 and 4 I hope, I'm trying to decide what a sensible daily stop loss would be, for instance if I lose x% of my bankroll in one day stop for the day, any ideas what a sensible number would be?

[ponyboy]

Is $105 enough for $5.50 SNG's?

I thought 30-50 buyins was a proper roll for SNG's. Especially if you're planning on playing 10 a day. That's potentially 50% of your roll invested in one day, meaning you could bust out in two.

[Stacks]

Is $105 enough for $5.50 SNG's?

I thought 30-50 buyins was a proper roll for SNG's. Especially if you're planning on playing 10 a day. That's potentially 50% of your roll invested in one day, meaning you could bust out in two.

Pony, for the $5.50s if your good at SNGs then 20 buyins is fine at such a low level. At least imo. When I was building my Stars roll I started playing $5.50s at $100BR and was fine and dandy. OP needs more padding to his roll, but w.e.

[LuckySlevin]

Just finished 3rd in the first step of the PCA, I have finally managed to work the tournament trimmer out and would appreciate some feedback on improving my play, had to put the entry down as 5.50 in the TT as it didn't have an option for 7.50, cheers all.

Just to add a little comment on two hands, the Q7 raise was an attempt to steal the blind, and hand 4 where I re-raised all in, B-davis had been raising every second hand (literally) and I was sure he was doing this with pretty much any two cards in an attempt to steal blinds.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/Online-...ment-4382.html

[LuckySlevin]

Is $105 enough for $5.50 SNG's?

I thought 30-50 buyins was a proper roll for SNG's. Especially if you're planning on playing 10 a day. That's potentially 50% of your roll invested in one day, meaning you could bust out in two.

Good point about busting out in two days, DavSimon does say you shouldn't risk more than about 10% of your roll in one day but I'm fairly sure this is once you have a bit more of a roll, the example he gives is with a roll of $500. He also says the minimum you should deposit is $100 and speaks of playing $5 buy in sng's with this.

He says there isn't a great deal in difference in playing ability between the lower stakes sng's.

[LuckySlevin]

I'm currenly $995 down on PS according to sharkscope, and have decided to start a new op with no room to to get anything wrong short of completely disregarding the one goal of the op. The goal is to play nothing but $3 + 0.40 until I have cleared the negative figure of $995.

If anyone has any ideas on how to develop discipline at the table I'd like to know. I think if I stick to this it's going to take ages but If I do manage it not only will I have a decent bankroll but i'll have developed some basic skills for the lower level and some discipline. cheers.

[ATOTHEC101]

gl dude, but tbh, id bet my house you dont stick to $3.4s :/, ull just get frustrated and suddenly decide to self implode and play some 30 buck tourneys etc. It would be great if you could change the error of your ways but i just dont see it happening. gl to you regardless.

[Muzzard]

I'm currenly $995 down on PS according to sharkscope, and have decided to start a new op with no room to to get anything wrong short of completely disregarding the one goal of the op. The goal is to play nothing but $3 + 0.40 until I have cleared the negative figure of $995.

Props to you, if you actually manage to do this.

[Stacks]

I'm currenly $995 down on PS according to sharkscope, and have decided to start a new op with no room to to get anything wrong short of completely disregarding the one goal of the op. The goal is to play nothing but $3 + 0.40 until I have cleared the negative figure of $995.

Props to you, if you actually manage to do this.

[animal_chin]

I'm currenly $995 down on PS according to sharkscope, and have decided to start a new op with no room to to get anything wrong short of completely disregarding the one goal of the op. The goal is to play nothing but $3 + 0.40 until I have cleared the negative figure of $995.

Props to you, if you actually manage to do this.

This +1.


I don't want to discourage you but you need to play 1400+ (you were planning on playing 60 SNGs a week so this would take around 6 months) $3.40 SNGs with an ROI of 20% to make this happen so you should move up as your bankroll permits. But, with you it might be better to stick with one limit for the time being, as it might teach you some patience in that category. Ohh, and I would keep away from the turbos, they seem to be more of a crap shoot than anything else.

[bjsaust]

The answer you're looking for is simple Slevin. When you find yourself thinking about playing anything other than a $3.40, stand up, turn the computer off and do something else. You obviously dont have the discipline to stay at the computer and follow BRM when you're tilting. After an hour or so if you've settled down, fire the computer back up and try again.

[LuckySlevin]

Thanks for the advice it hasn't been easy but this op is a success so far. I've just gone out before cashing 4 consecutive times and in every hand I was ahead before the turn and river which was when the chips went in. I deposited $30 yesterday and have about 8 left. I feel hard done by as I know I'm playing well, and being disciplined and not getting rewarded for it. I don't care what happens now though this op is more important to me than the poker. I'm already finding the inclintion to 'gamble up' when my BR gets low diminishing the more I refuse to do it, so I think as well as limiting the amount I'm losing this will also help my discipline.

Before I came to write this I felt really bad because of the bad beats, I get a tense feeling in my chest when I'm really mad/dissapointed and that's what I had (I'm not having a heart attack the other kind of feeling...), but just writing this and reminding myself what it's all about I feel a bit better now.

Thanks for continuing to offer your advice, despite my previous short comings. Cheers.

[WillburForce]

Slevin,

why not play cash for a bit?

you could 4 table $2nl 6 max, playing nothing but good hands and position and be up to $5nl in no time.

I recon it would be a lot quicked than SnG's, and less variance.

[LuckySlevin]

Thanks wilburfoce, I chose the sng's because the sharkscope graph would give me a way of measuring how I was doing, but I hadn't thought of that, and if less variance I think it will be a good idea. I'll change tact then now and play nothing but the $2nl 6max, thanks for the advice.

[LuckySlevin]

I just want to check 2nl is the .1/.2 tables right? im buying in for 2$ as this is 100blinds buts the max buy in is $5. is this what you mean wilburforce?

[WillburForce]

its the $0.01/$0.02, but I think thats what you meant. And it seems low, but the players down there just want to throw their money away. Play a solid TAG game and you'll do fine. No silly bluffing. Its not needed. Just play solid hands and position.

here's a tip (copyright Spoon):

1. Withdraw all money on all sites
2. Deposit $50 on PokerStars <http://www.flopturnriver.com/reviews/Online-Poker-PokerStars.php>
3. Play 2nl with a $2 buy-in until you have $100.
4. Play 5nl with a $5 buy-in until you have $250.
5. Play 10nl until you have $625.
6. Play 25nl until you have $1500.
7. Play 50nl until you have $3500.
8. Play 100nl, etc.

By doing this you have some cleary acheivable targets.
And it feels good when you have beaten a level. Even if its only $2nl, when you've hit the $100 and its time to move to $5nl, you can actually say you've acheived something at poker and are beginning to become a winning player.

Gl, no jumping up a level to chase money. We all know where that ends.

[LuckySlevin]

wilburforce how long do you stay on the table for once you win some chips? or do you just play until you feel like leaving? i'm wondering if you quit when you're a certain amt of big blinds deep

[WillburForce]

I don't have any cut-off. I'd only leave if I thought the players were better than me or I'm finished playing.

I remember at $2nl though, even if you're sat there with $20odd, fish come sit at the table with their last $.87 or whatever and try and gamble with you. EZ money. Wait for a hand and stack em. Take that $.87 all the way to the bank.

If I was you though I'd have a stop loss - say 3 buy'ins down, take a break.

And theres plenty of tables out there. Make sure you select well, and if you feel theres better players than you, theres no shame in leaving and finding another table.

[LuckySlevin]

Things are going well I don't know what changed this time around - but I've managed to remain disciplined and stick to the 2nl. The $8 I had is now at $20 it feels like it's taking a while but to double what I had this morning playing 2nl and only 1 (max 2) tabling I will have to be happy with that. I definately think now I'm getting into cash games and out of sgs it's better for me.

Thanks for the input today from FTR'ers - bjaust thanks for the discipline advice. Wilburforce you got me in the mindset of cash games and that's done me a big favour - this is going much smoother now. Stacks thanks for sweating me for an hour earlier and talking through the hand play. One direct thing that I've changed in my game is this. I used to bet the flop if I hit a piece of it 'to find out where I was' - say I have a AJ and the flop is JQ5 I would bet that. If I'm then called I might double barrel etc.. Or I might just call another bet, basically this was just bad play I realise that now. By checking behind and then seeing how theyreact I get the same (if not more accurate) info and i'm not throwing chips away I got this insight from talking with stacks earlier in aim so thanks for that, it seems to have been a huge leak in my game.

Also thanks Ablarrr for stopping by and wishing me luck.

It's been a good day today - I think I've finally cracked the discipline thing, having been down to $8 at one point but just staying true to the op and not going to a higher buy in.

Fingers crossed my bankroll will hold up and continue to grow. For now I'm playing 6max as I find if I play anymore than 2 tables I play badly and 1/2 tabling full ring sends me to sleep! By playing 6-max I don't get bored and get some action, but I understand from speaking with people that full-ring will have less variance and will be easier to multi-table, so I will re-read rentons 169 guide later and maybe try some full ring later in the week.

[spoonitnow]

wilburforce how long do you stay on the table for once you win some chips? or do you just play until you feel like leaving? i'm wondering if you quit when you're a certain amt of big blinds deep

If you're deep on a table, the player to your left is also deep but the player on your right is not deep, it's time to find a new table 99% of the time.

[LuckySlevin]

on your left, that's s left as you look at the screen? so the person to act before you? or is it as you would be sitting at the table so the person to act after you - sorry this should be obvious but can't work out which one it is.

[Stacks]

on your left, that's s left as you look at the screen? so the person to act before you? or is it as you would be sitting at the table so the person to act after you - sorry this should be obvious but can't work out which one it is.

To your left is the villain who will act after you. It's as if you were sitting at the table in your respective seat. And I'm pretty sure the reason spoon is saying this is because if a villain is directly to your left and is also deep with you, then his gameplay should change. He should be playing more pots with you as he will have position nearly always. And he has a good chance of playing big pot in position with you for a large sum of chips. However, you will be playing big pots with him Out Of Position.

[ib3x]

One direct thing that I've changed in my game is this. I used to bet the flop if I hit a piece of it 'to find out where I was' - say I have a AJ and the flop is JQ5 I would bet that. If I'm then called I might double barrel etc.. Or I might just call another bet, basically this was just bad play I realise that now. By checking behind and then seeing how theyreact I get the same (if not more accurate) info and i'm not throwing chips away I got this insight from talking with stacks earlier in aim so thanks for that, it seems to have been a huge leak in my game.

This is something you now almost get, but not quite. See, this 'information' you're getting by checking, you should be getting WITHOUT checking. In other words, PLAY HANDS IN POSITION. The villain should be the one acting first! A good player mucks AJ UTG and 3bets QJs on the button. A great player mucks AQ UTG and 3bets JTs on the button. Just imho.

(also note I play exclusively 6max, so don't take my generalizations as advice for your full ring game. i suggest reading. a lot.)

[spoonitnow]

on your left, that's s left as you look at the screen? so the person to act before you? or is it as you would be sitting at the table so the person to act after you - sorry this should be obvious but can't work out which one it is.

To your left is the villain who will act after you. It's as if you were sitting at the table in your respective seat. And I'm pretty sure the reason spoon is saying this is because if a villain is directly to your left and is also deep with you, then his gameplay should change. He should be playing more pots with you as he will have position nearly always. And he has a good chance of playing big pot in position with you for a large sum of chips. However, you will be playing big pots with him Out Of Position.

Yeah this is the point, that you'll be playing all of the potentially huge pots with the positional disadvantage.

[LuckySlevin]

Current BR: $38.36

Thanks for that info Spoon. Things are moving along nicely at the moment I just finished a 3 hour session and have made a tidy profit, the $8 I had yesterday is now $38 thanks to a profit of about $16 from the session I've just finished.

I've been 3/4 tabling 6max 2nl and despite losing a buy in within about 2 minutes of starting I've played well since so am pleased.

I'm starting to actually believe myself that this may be the turning point in my failed poker journey to date, I'm not tempting fate - but am starting to grow a litte more confident with each winning session!

I'm going to eat for a bit now and break for an hour or two and then play again, I'd like to reach about $60 by close of play tonight (its 2:40pm at the moment).

Once I reach 100$ unless anyone thinks it's a bad idea, I think I might give 5nl a try as per previous suggestions.

Thanks again for reading - this blog may turn into a success story after all! =)

[LuckySlevin]

This is something you now almost get, but not quite. See, this 'information' you're getting by checking, you should be getting WITHOUT checking. In other words, PLAY HANDS IN POSITION. The villain should be the one acting first! A good player mucks AJ UTG and 3bets QJs on the button. A great player mucks AQ UTG and 3bets JTs on the button. Just imho.

(also note I play exclusively 6max, so don't take my generalizations as advice for your full ring game. i suggest reading. a lot.)

Thanks for this - now you've said it, it makes perfect sense, and I see the importance of position more clearly now. This whole not having to bet into pots to find out where you are has been the one thing that's helped me the most I think recently. aside from actually sticking to a BR plan of course...

Until yesterday this was a huge leak in my game, I have to thanks stacks again for spending some time yesterday because it was only through talking to someone while playing that this 'leak' became apparent, and if the very small sample of games since are anything to go by, I think it's made a big difference to my success.

[WillburForce]

Moving up to $5nl is fine when you get to $100 as you'll be rolled for it.

Then if you lose a couple of buy-ins or drop down to $90 at any point, leave table/s immediately and play $2nl again until you get to $100 again!

EZ as that. That’s bankroll management for you.

[allabout]

I don't know why, but I felt compelled to pull up one of your tables yesterday and watch for a little bit.
One note...don't minraise preflop, especially out of position. The hand was basically like 4 limpers, you're in the small blind and minraise and everyone comes along of course. Raise like you mean it or don't raise at all, should be at least 4xbb +1bb for each limper (even more oop). GL

[LuckySlevin]

hmm not sure what I was upto there, I very rarely raise less than 4bb + 1bb for each limper, can't remember the hand in question but thanks for the comment.

down to $25 now, just tilted when I lost a 600bb stack.
I had a flush on the flop (with an ace in the hole) and was being 4 bet. Shoved and got called, and the turn and river went... 10, 10 - giving him a full house. That's poker though I should know better by now.

Anyway i'm walking away from the computer while I still have $25 of my bankroll left and coming back in a couple of hours! Still up for the day having lost that massive stack and also having tilted 3 buyins way - so I shouldn't complain.

[Muzzard]

600bb, HH plz?

[WillburForce]

i watched a table for 5mins early and Slevin was playing ok (though there was a push you got away with which I thought was very questionable - still you could have had it) - and he was on approx $8, so 600bb is easily feasible. 600bb ain't no biggie at $2nl.

Give the guy a break. Lets hope he has turned the corner.

[sarbox68]

Anyway i'm walking away from the computer while I still have $25 of my bankroll left and coming back in a couple of hours!

Prolly saved yourself the rest of your roll...

keep it up bro - I rly think you're better off at cash than SNG -- getting pissed and donking off a buy-in or 2 is not as big of a deal (if you're 20+ rolled...) as getting pissed, and donking off your entire $25 tourney buy-in as u waz prone to do.

keep it nice and slowly, nice and slowly -- no prizes given for going broke quickly!

[Xianti]

NOTICE TO ALL TROLLERS:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...34.html#772505

DO NOT reply to my comment in this thread.

Keep this thread (and all Operation threads) on topic and free of insults or anything unhelpful.

[LuckySlevin]

Thank you and thanks to all the good advice I'm receiving lately from FTRers. Wilburforce I've been trying to take the advice you gave about just playing solid hands and position and have been doing reasonably ok. I haven't played much today but am looking forward to a good session later this evening. I've changed my strategy a little and am going to see how things work out. The reason being although I've been playing what I thought were premium hands and using my position well I've been doing so more from my own thinking and things I've picked up from FTR over the last couple of months. Yesterday I came across a strategy guide specifically for 6max by Ryan Fee (I don't know if anyone else has seen this?) It's well written and basically has a list of starting hands for each position interspersed with playing advice such as when to 3-bet, how to play post-flop etc.

I've made a list of hands for each position and will one table tonight while I get used to the hands, until I know them without looking at any charts. I know generally people that play from starting hands charts are considered weak, but given my current ability and also the fact that most 2nl players are quite bad - I thought I'd give this a go for now. Once I'm at the stage where I know every hand from the guide for every position I'll play a few more tables, If anyone thinks this is a bad idea please let me know !

[BankItDrew]

i have never seen so much optimism within one operation thread.

i envy this attribute of yours slevin and hope you pwn donks one day on a daily basis

[daven]

and hope you pwn donks one day on a daily basis

+1 good luck

[Stacks]

Slevin, I'm off the belief that a starting hand chart will do you alot of good right now. Your villains won't pick up on anything, and it should help you stay discipliined and somewhat tighter than usual. The only thing to consider is that ryan fees guide is I believe for higher 6max games. That doesn't mean it will prove useless to you, but just keep in mind some things he will talk about like 3bet bluffing won't hold as much weight at your stakes.

But once you learn the hands, then you can begin learning the situations in which you can open up and deviate from those "starting hands requirements".

[LuckySlevin]

Thanks for the comments much appreciated, I ended today about where I began so not too bad. I met someone quite interesting tonight though, a maniac that joined the table I was on, he was raising EVERY hand, and if he was called he was always C-betting the flop. He was showing down with 7-4, A-2, 5-9, basically any two cards. If he was 2bet, he was either 3betting or shoving and doing it with any two cards! He stacked me when he first joined the table as I had figured what he was doing and decided to call his all in with TPTK on the flop. He hit trips on the turn.

There's a happy ending to the tale though... he stayed on the table and bought back in about 3 times. At one point when he was stacked he said 'oh no.. my theory isn't working - but I had an ace' which did sound a little ironic. He raised in a hand about 20 minutes later, and I re-raised to isolate (I had AQ) - he shoved. I thought for a while and folded, I'd like to know against someone as loose as this whether I should have called there? Anyway I was rewarded because two or three hands later I have AK, raise, he re-raises, I 3-bet, and he shoves - this time I call - and win with Ace high, he had some rubbish again I think.

Now for the twist... and the funny part of this story. I make a note of his name thinking to myself - i'll have to look out for him in future, he could help grow my bankroll... out of curiousity I search for him an hour or two later and find him 10 tabling 400nl !! Lookng back his comment about his 'theory not working' did sound a bit suspect - no one can really be THAT bad! I guess he just wanted a bit of fun for 10 minutes?
Best, I don't search him out too hard in future! =)

I'm going to make a point of noting my BR at the end of my sessions to help keep me focussed and on track.

Current BR: $28.73

[bikes]

Lol Baaardaments.

[Stacks]

Lol Baaardaments.

^this!

[DaddyDeez]

hey man, glad to see your playing cash now i think it should help u with alot of stuff in the long run and its much harder to donk your roll. There is so many good sticky's on this site to read that will help u with cash so much, also just about every thread spoon has made in the past few months is effin great.

spendas micro movies are really good too.

keep buildin that roll man, when u hit 100$ and move up to 5$NL it feels great jus to accomplish something in poker.
Pm me or add me to Aim if u ever wanna talk strategy.
glgl

[daven]

I make a note of his name thinking to myself - i'll have to look out for him in future, he could help grow my bankroll... out of curiousity I search for him an hour or two later and find him 10 tabling 400nl !!

hint - you may find that this maniac is actually an ftr reg who enjoys your posts here. Don't ever take him on heads up...

[badgers]

outstanding post. Well played baaard

[LuckySlevin]

after a little bit of research I've unmasked the identity of the mystery 'maniac' it was 'fat-b' =) thanks for stopping by my stakes!

... I feel like I'm stuck in mud at the moment, I play for hours each day and although I'm not really losing now, I'm not winning either. I've played for about 5 hours today and despite reaching an all time high of $35 have ebbed and flowed and am now down again.

I must admit I'm starting to grow a little impatient now, as I think I should be able to grind to at least 50 with relative ease but it doesn't seem to be working out quite as simple as that. I haven't once played a higher buy in so am pleased with that. I've been 4-tabling the last hour and am overall down about a buy in and a half.

I used to find it hard to multi table but now I just focus on an 'instant' desicion - i.e. do I fold/call/raise with this, then move on to the next - which does make things a bit simpler.

Thanks for the aim invitiation daddy once I hit $100 and move up to 5nl I'll be sure to take you up on it! I'm about to start another session now I'm going to play for 2 hours. Regardless of my status then I'm going to quit for a few hours and possibly fit one more session in before bed, or I may call it a day then tonight. By setting a time limit on the session - I think it will help to control it. If I'm down then I might play on usually and try to 'win the buy ins back' but by setting a time limit I'll avoid this.

Current BR: $27

[fat-b]

luuuz

[d0zer]

I must admit I'm starting to grow a little impatient now, as I think I should be able to grind to at least 50 with relative ease

Unrealistic expectations will make you grow impatient and drive you to play above your bankroll.

It would do you a lot of good to release your expectations for bankroll growth. Focus on developing your skills first. The bankroll will naturally grow at its own pace. Sometimes ridiculously fast, sometimes it will stagnate. Your mental health will suffer if you expect it to be consistently fast though.

[Stacks]

I must admit I'm starting to grow a little impatient now, as I think I should be able to grind to at least 50 with relative ease

Unrealistic expectations will make you grow impatient and drive you to play above your bankroll.

It would do you a lot of good to release your expectations for bankroll growth. Focus on developing your skills first. The bankroll will naturally grow at its own pace. Sometimes ridiculously fast, sometimes it will stagnate. Your mental health will suffer if you expect it to be consistently fast though.

^^This.

The thing is, you might be winning right now, but that doesn't necessarily mean you have become a winning player yet. I'm not saying this to down you in any way. I'm simply saying that even though you have made some realizations about your game, it is possible that those realizations haven't changed you into a winning player. And this is okay...

Whether your crushing the tables or losing just a little, you have made some decent strides in the last week that you failed to make for the first couple of months. You just need to stick with it. Your two main focuses right now should be to (1) make sure you stick with 2nl, and (2) learn poker. Your biggest flaw was BRM. And while going busto again would suck, it would be much better for you to do so at 2nl, than in a SNG in which you put your whole roll on the line. So don't get impatient and do that. And while I know you want to see money begin to flow in and the roll begin to increase, you need to realize that is a little ways away from occurring. You shouldn't be judging your progress on your hourly, or how big your bankroll is. You should instead judge it on how much you are learning and beginning to understand. The hourly, and BR will follow.

And while you are playing you need to keep studying... TBH, I'm not sure you should be playing 7+ hours a day. While playing gives you great experience upon which to build, you need a foundation to build it on. You should consider studying the majority of the time at your current state. When I was playing 10nl, and I'm sure it's the same for a lot, I studied about the same amount of time, if not more, than I played. It's after you learn the majority of the things you will need to know to be a winning player that you can start mutli-tabling and crushing. If you do this before your a winning player, you aren't increasing your chances of winning, your simply increasing the speed at which your losing, or the number of hands you put in playing break-even.

[LuckySlevin]

Thanks for the advice both of you, I'm going to try hard to internalise that, I think it's the next step I need to take. Now I have my BR under control, I need to work the expectation part, yeah I guess I am too results orientated at the moment. It's been an epicly bad day today down to $18.90, the BR management really does work though - at least I can still play again tomorrow, tomorrows another day though and I'm expecting great things! I've got back up from $8 not so long ago, so am sure I can do it from 18.90 as long as I play at my best.

I'm really growing to admire all of you that are playing the higher stakes that have made the same journey from small stakes to big stakes, because I can see how hard it is to make it just in the early stakes, which is the very early part of that journey. Lifes full of little revelatons thanks again for the input, very much appreciated. I think tomorrow I'm going to tighten right up, drop the suited connectors out, and just play premium hands and position as I started (and wilburforce advocated) I think the 6max strategy guide is a bit of an overkill for these little stakes

I'll say this though for the benefit of the odd new member that might stumble across this post. BR management is everything, without it there is nothing.

I think you can find good in most things, it wasn't so long ago that a losing session would mean I wouldn't be able to play again for a couple of days / week. Now I've had two pretty average days (losing days) and yet can still play again tomorrow, I've got BR management and the good advice I've received in the thread over the last couple of days to thank for that.

[Warpe]

I'll say this though for the benefit of the odd new member that might stumble across this post. BR management is everything, without it there is nothing.

FINALLY!!!

[daven]

I think tomorrow I'm going to tighten right up, drop the suited connectors out, and just play premium hands and position as I started

yes

BR management is everything, without it there is nothing.

and position is second

Study a little more - maybe start by reading the digest posts in the short-handed forum.

[Stacks]

As stated when I was sweating you, I still suggest you give full ring a chance and just nit it up. I believe it will do wonders for your game at this point in your journey. Reason being is in Full Ring you can be tighter and still profit (especially at the lower levels). And because you are playing tighter you will have easier decisions both preflop and postflop. So it should cut out a little bit of FPS (Fancy Play Syndrome) that you might have, and get you to learning solid, sound ABC strategy.

And I know you said playing FR bores you, but you are up to 4 tables now. Just play 4 tables of FR for a session or so and see how it goes. If you are playing it right, you shouldn't get too bored. And if so, add another 2 tables to make sure you are still playing tight.

[Warpe]

^^^^
bingo

[WillburForce]

good work all Slevin. The pennys dropped!

[LuckySlevin]

Yes, it took long enough didn't it Just finished a good session, I took the advice on board and jettisoned the 6max and switched to full ring. I've been playing between 5 to 3 tables, and had a really good session.

I played tight on the whole, with the odd suited connector here and there to mix my play up a bit. Luck wise I think it was probabally even, I hit hit a flush once and a full house on a paired board, yet my Aces were cracked with kings all in pre-flop so I think it evened itself out

After about 3 hours I'm up 12 buy ins so results wise it's the best session I've had for a long time, and process wise it was also a good one - as I constantly found myself folding AJ, KJ, and even AQ in earlier positions which I'd usually be more than happy to raise into a limped pot with. I'm going to treat myself to a PCA steps buy in with FPP points once I clock up 500, so will start recording points as well as bankroll at the end of my sessions.

Next Goals.
1. Reach $100 and attempt 5nl.
2. Study enough so that when the bankroll grows to accomadate 10nl I am developed enough to play it.

Longer Term Goal.
1. Reach $500 BR, which will allow me to remove the cost of Holdem Manager so I can purchase that and start using it in my games.

Current BR: $44.44
Current FPP: 23

Edit: BR down to $28 at the moment I've played a couple of hands badly but am fairly sure on the whole it's just people sucking out... I'm really enjoying this now, knowing it doesn't really matter if I win or lose I just need to keep playing at my best and chances are I won't go bust.

I'm 8 tabling now and really enjoy it, it adds a new dimension to the game. Because a this level my play is so robotic it makes ita lot more exciting as i'm having to make a descision every couple of seconds.

couple of observations and lessons I've learnt. Don't just call peoples small bets thinkig they have nothing because you have a top pair top kicker, they will likely hit something by the river. Instead raise them to a propper size bet so they don't have the chance.

don't assume anyone is bluffing, ever. always (for now at these stakes) take it for granted there bets represent their hand. I'm getting caught out more and more, because I'm assuming i'm being bluffed a lot more than I am.

Will have another session later, and hopefully will end above $28.

[Stacks]

Keep working slevin. One thing to note is the PCA steps. If you want to do that, then I'm not here to stop you. However, there is another option that should be considered at your stakes. There are 210fpp satellites. It's 20 people on 2 tables. And top 6 get the satellite entry to the Sunday 200k tournament, worth $11. You could play those, and unreg from the tourney and be given 5.5 buyins, which is a good bit. I would definately consider these.

[kmind]

Very pleased with your maturation, Gary. Way to go! Keep it up.

[OhBollocks]

Keep up the good work Slev.

I dont know how you did it but; you managed to show massive potential in the beginning, get some great advise from regs, ignore it all repeatedly, lose several rolls and the respect of said regs, suffer a huge amount of trolling and still stick around with a positive outlook......

..and then....

you finally start applying the advise you get (particularly BRM), switch to cash (FR micro is like free moneyz), get some respect back, and get sweat sessions from a $100NL Reg!

I guess I just really hope you stick to it this time. Best of "luck" to ya kiddo.


P.S. You totally ruined James Bond for me. I saw the trailer for the new movie and instead of seeing Daniel Craig as Bond, all I could see was a donktastic donator who cant keep a roll

[Muzzard]

Bump for updatez plz

[LuckySlevin]

Thanks Casey, that's great to hear.

Also thanks for the encouragement OhB.

Bump for updatez plz

re: updates... at the top under 'where i'm at'

[LuckySlevin]

Now I have BRM confidently under control I have been assessing my game in an attempt to determine the next priority to focus my attention on.

I've been studying up on learning recently in an attempt to become more efficient in my poker training. The following passage which I read while reading about learning recently helped me realise that one tabling is the only sensible way forward for me for now (my bold) : -

The point of learning, when the impossible becomes possible, occurs at the junction of consciously changing our actions and responses ... we need to go through the necessary skill development process very, very slowly so that we can consciously control our thoughts and actions to create the new responses and achieve the formerly, personally impossible result ... If we can do something a little bit faster and still do it correctly then we can repeat it again only even faster ... The skill learning process has not yet finished as we then need to repeat the newly learned processes for as many times as it takes until we no longer have to consciously think about the process. At that point we have thoroughly learnt something and it has become a part of us. Further practice then refines the performance of the skill.

I may lose some speed in the bankroll climb, but I think it will be compensated for by grooving the right processes into habits at the table, and the reduced risk of spew when/if I tilt or just generally start playing sub optimally. Getting the right habits formed and internalised is essential in this early phase of my poker development so that in itself would make the one tabling a very worthwhile consideration. However the reduced risk of spew is also very worthwhile in itself, I say this because I have isolated where I came unstuck in my last attempt to develop a bankroll. Once I had a bad beat and made the odd bad play on one table it cascaded onto my other tables and before I knew it I was playing sub optimally (of course that's relative, I'm no where near an objective optimum, but personally sub obtimally) on 8 tables which accounted for about 40% of my BR at the time. If I had been one tabling I'm fairly sure I would have noticed this after losing the buy-in, or surely, by the time I would have opened another table and done the same thing. With 8 tables open at the same time - I'm exposing myself to 8 times the risk in these situations.

Once I have good habits / 'natural instinct' then I can add a few more tables.

Also the following has forced me to re-evaluate my focus at the table: -

The great problem of most people when they learn new skills is that they spend most of their time repeating the easy stuff ... but they cannot progress overall because they do not tackle the things that remain impossible for them. These impossible things naturally feel very difficult to do but through following a sensible method they become possible. To supercharge our learning we must put most of our focus upon these difficult to do things.

By multi-tabling I was avoiding one of the things I find hardest to do and that is to put my opponents on a fairly accurate hand range and consequently develop good reads on the villian. Now that I'm fully aware of this I realise even more why it is important for me to focus on one table for now, aside from getting the very basics of (1)preflop positionaly aware play, and (2)post flop bet sizing, on auto pilot - one tabling will also allow me to become more adept at (3)ranging and reading the villian.

[Irisheyes]

praise the lord

[LuckySlevin]

I did eat through my bankroll last week although BR wasn't at fault this time, in fact br was faultless (hooray progress). Patience was my faltering point, i was 8 tabling and when a bad bit of varience hit, and I got a bit jilted it percolated to the other 7 tables and before I knew it I was playing bad on all tables. Today Saturday 25th Oct. I'm about to deposit $30 (can't afford 50 at the moment). I'm going to read FTR to improve my strategy and 1 table until I reach $50. After I reach that milestone I'll continue with 1 table to $100. At this point I'll re-evaluate the next steps.

FTR has been the biggest influence on my game so far, if it wasn't for FTR poker would have just become a vice - as I would have I'm sure continued to ignore BR advice to infinity. I have FTR to thank mostly for the fact that I'm now off on the right footing.

So I'm going to deposit, then spend a couple of hours studying, then play some full ring 1 table 2nl.

[fat-b]

I'm about to deposit $30 (can't afford 50 at the moment)

THIS

[LuckySlevin]

Well I can't but this is disposable, don't worry I'm not going hungry. I think at the micro stakes 15 buy ins should be enough for now - I mean I could have waited until I had $50 but this would have meant waiting until next week. I've never been a saver fat-b, my appoach to money has always been wrong, which is why I had so much trouble with BR management for the first 3 months of my poker journey.

I have faith though - I can see the difference in my game and approach over the past 3-4 months and I'm a different player altogether to who I was 3 months ago.

I'm fairly certain anytime soon, I will be making the progress that sees me never having to deposit again, It may be this time, it may be another - but I know I'm on the brink of it

[bikes]

Pull a Fatb

and go pro with CC rolls

[chardrian]

I did eat through my bankroll last week although BR wasn't at fault this time, in fact br was faultless (hooray progress). Patience was my faltering point, i was 8 tabling and when a bad bit of varience hit, and I got a bit jilted it percolated to the other 7 tables and before I knew it I was playing bad on all tables.

I am still baffled by how someone who can write so cogently and be so determined to improve, still totally misses the point.

If you are practicing "faultless" br management you CANNOT "eat through" your br. If you have $30 that means you have just 15 buyins for $2NL, that means you can't multitable because if you're playing 8 tables than you are not just risking $2 you are risking $16 and that's HALF your BR!!!

I would adivse that you are not allowed to do anything other than play one table until you grow your roll to at least $40. I'll let you add a table for every $10 you make. And if you ever have a downswing where you lose $10 you subtract a table. Will it be boring? Yes. But you shouldn't be playing this game for the adrenaline rush, you're playing to make money.

[LuckySlevin]

Chardrian thanks for taking the time to read my OP and offering your advice, I'll be sure to follow your instructions about multi-tabling and protecting my bankroll with the 10$ table increments.

I've just finished my study for the night which has been a trawl through some FTR posts, I've synthesized what I've read into the following strategy which I'm going to follow. If anyone has any comments on how I can improve on this please do let me know. There isn't much direct positional strategy here, although I will not be forgetting the lessons I've already learnt - and I'll definately be playing with position in mind.

1. Confidence. Do not forget that 2nl IS easy, have confidence and faith in your own abilities. re: { you cannot get owned at microstakes, you can only own yourself (through stupidity, inattention, lack of discipline etc). - erpel paraphrasing someones signature he had remembered. }

2. Pre Flop Hand Selection. Is vital to success.

{most of the following pre-flop strategy re: aokrongly's 19 starting hands}

Playing JJ+ and AK.
into unraised pot: JJ+, and AK - raise 3-5 BB
into a raised pot: reraise KK+, call with the rest.
if shoved: go all in with AA and KK.
if caught between two raisers, fold everything but AA.

playing AQ,
raise into an unraised pot.
if the pot is already raised fold.

playing AJ, KQ, QJ
limp into an unraised pot, fold if the pot is already raised.

playing pp's TT-
limp, if raised call a 3-4bb raise (if the raiser has a decent size stack)
{playing small pp's always think set value, set value, set value. limp if first to act. call standard raises with 2 others in the hand, possibly HU. i know this is not mathematically correct, but this is 10 NL, and no one seems to throw away TP. the set is a monster hand down here. - chopper answering local_echos question "66-22. How would you play these in EP and MP? I've limped sometimes, folded sometimes, but I get a little confused on how to play these.}

modification to 19 starting hands
playing suited connectors and suited aces in EP
limp these from EP {"I dont mind playing suited conectors and suited Ax in early to mid position in a cash game as long as I am deep stacked. At micro stakes usually your limp will encourage others to limp and you'll end up with a multi way pot which is ideal. Remember why you're playing them though, you are not looking for top pair which is rarely good. You're looking for the straights and flushs and maybe some kind of two pair combo." -meeloche.}

3. Post flop Play
bet sizing - make sure you raise between 50% and 100% of the pot.
bet hard when you hit, if you think they're drawing make sure they are drawing at the incorrect price.
overpair to non scary flop If you have an OP to a non scary board, raise the flop, and call a flop bet if raised before you, be wary of calling a bet on the turn though.
drawing ONLY draw if getting the correct odds, it doesn't matter how small the difference is IF you're not getting the right odds don't draw {http://www.flopturnriver.com/chart_pot_odds.html}
all ins only call an all in IF you have the absolute nuts. Be very wary of tagging someone as bluffing, don't do it unless you have a strong read.
playing your monsters
don't be afraid to put them down if you're deepstacked. It's not worth throwing away hours of play for one hand. "At these stakes, play the board, play their hand and above all protect that stack.
be aware that weeker players, at $2NL, $5NL and even $10NL, will draw to any two suited flush draws, no matter what you bet. Bet the hell out of them and don't stack off because 'he couldn't have the Flush after calling those bets'." {jyms commenting being able to fold good hands in micro stakes play}
if the flop is bet
Be wary of continuing without top pair top kicker. {The vast majority of micro-stakes players don't raise on a draw. - staresy}

4. Mindset - Remember why you are playing. Keep this in mind.
{"Your measure of success for a session should not be if your bankroll goes up or down, but whether you make the right decisions in the situations you are presented. The best thing you can do for your game is probably divorce your thinking from the idea that winning money is important." - Erpel. }

Start of new Mini OP - reach $100 BR.
Starting BR: $30
Target BR: $100
Stakes: 2nl full ring.

[LuckySlevin]

Re a reply by Daven to something I queried over in the BC earlier today, I'm re-revising the above starting hand strategy, and going back to the 19 starting hands, cutting the suited connectors and suited Ax(s) out.

I'll also be wary of playing mid/low strength broadways in EP. Thanks for putting me right on that Daven.

For you it's different slev.
Play no looser than 15-10, ever. Play 6-5 UTG and UTG+1 - that means folding AQ and 66.
oh, and stop over-valuing card combinations cos they're sooted

[AdamThePirate]

I would adivse that you are not allowed to do anything other than play one table until you grow your roll to at least $40. I'll let you add a table for every $10 you make. And if you ever have a downswing where you lose $10 you subtract a table. Will it be boring? Yes. But you shouldn't be playing this game for the adrenaline rush, you're playing to make money.

+1

Slevin, you play $2NL, so do I.

Read your starting hands thingy, a few tips:

when raising, raise 3-4x bb + 1 bb for every person who limped. Yes, sometimes you will be raising by 16c, or whatever if you're the button and it's been limped around, but just do it, don't bet 3x bb when you have 6 other people limping before you. Otherwise you'll get a ton of callers to your pocket A's and lose.

Don't limp with KQ, AJ, QJ, JK, raise with them if the post is unopened, if facing a re-raise, then fold. Play them similar to AQo. I generally fold them if in EP though.

For PP's, 99-TT can usually hold their own, especially if you're playing from late/the button. I raise with TT's if limped around.

Have patience, don't over do the multi-tabling, start with one, then add one more for every milestone you pass (every $10 as suggested by chardrian).

[LuckySlevin]

Thanks Adam it's nice to know that I'm not the only FTR'rer grinding at 2nl! Thanks for the advice hand wise too I think anything that helps me tighten up is good.

It's been a tough couple of sessions down about 3 buy ins. Having analysed some of the hands I've lost with it's generally when I've C-Bet. Once I double barrelled, and of course was called with Ace high, which hit on the river. I had a middle pair. From now on I'm not double barelling at these stakes. I'm also a bit wary of C-betting at all, so will try to cut that down as well I think. People just don't respect your bets/raises at these stakes.

Oh well.. Onwards and upwards. Just about to start my next session.

[Keilah]

I only read the last post and I'm sure you've heard this before, but all you have to do postflop at 2NL is:
-cbet occasionally on K/Q-high boards and maybe some rubbishy boards like T62. Do not double barrel.
-Bet all your TPGK+ hands for value every street. If raised, either fold or slow down unless it's by a maniac or you have a nut hand.
-Uhhhh, that's about it. I guess you can toy with playing draws aggressively too, it should be around oEV at your stakes.

Sounds pretty easy^^ GL