Station blues.

[wonderland]

Stations are hiding in my breakfast cereal. Stealing my bank account.

So this guy was your typical station. At the time he was like 40/0 as i look at his stats now it says 70.83/0.

One of those who you just assume is gonna call.

Having had a lot of experience of these kinds of fish, i totally know i'm PWND on the river. I didn't call even though i knew i had decent odds BUT i fuckin KNEW his range killed me here. He's calling with hearts or an ace. Sometimes i don't follow my reads and it costs me, so this time i cut my losses.

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG pardon3000 ($12.65)
CO Stefan4978 ($5.70)
BTN Hero ($8.50)
SB Tylasgun ($12.50)
BB jean scoute ($5.85)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 5 players) Hero is BTN
1 fold, Stefan4978 calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.40, 2 folds, Stefan4978 calls $0.30

Flop: ($0.95, 2 players)
Stefan4978 checks, Hero bets $0.70, Stefan4978 calls $0.70

Turn: ($2.35, 2 players)
Stefan4978 checks, Hero bets $2.10, Stefan4978 calls $2.10

River: ($6.55, 2 players)
Stefan4978 bets $1.50, Hero folds

Final Pot: $6.55

Stefan4978 wins $7.75 ( won +$3.05 )
Hero lost -$3.20

[surviva316]

i think you're a bit range paranoid. his range is polarized between hands that crush you who are trying to entice you to call and scared Q hands that are stop betting you. i personally take my 4:1 odds here and thank him for betting the exact value we were looking for here. even if you're wrong, you got a dollar fifty read out of it.

PS: i'm raising more PF at a SH table that has even just one fish like this at the table.

PSS: this might be nit-picky, but why do you only have 85bb?

[surviva316]

PSSS: my river game is a leak. if he checks to us i'd check back. is this right? if i were OOP in this situation i would probably bet 3.5 or so. is this right?

also logic seems to have it that the gap concept is turned on its head on the river when we have position, that is that we should be calling wider than we're betting. is this right?

[wonderland]

i'm not playing full stack just yet. Feeling my way and also not feeling so comfortable (running bad). I want more than anything to get a steady position at this stake.

I want to increase my buy-in amount over time. That said, if i tilt i soon add max amount to my stack.

I also check behind.

The call is a funny one. Yes i have nice odds but when you're read feels solid. Like i know these fish, they call with hands that just need that card to fall, and i can tell when it does. I might not put him on a fush here but he's got the ace. Possibly two pair. When he leads into me there its a clear pattern.

check, call, check, call... BET. What else is he gonna have? Do we put him on a bluff?

[sil693]

STOP FARKING TALKING ABOUT RUNNING BAD

[surviva316]

The call is a funny one. Yes i have nice odds but when you're read feels solid. Like i know these fish, they call with hands that just need that card to fall, and i can tell when it does. I might not put him on a fush here but he's got the ace. Possibly two pair. When he leads into me there its a clear pattern.

check, call, check, call... BET. What else is he gonna have? Do we put him on a bluff?

QT. this smells just as much like a stop bet as it does a pussy value bet (reread my post, i thought it was a good one lol).

i don't see why you're so confident in your A read. i know that stations very very very very often call the cbet w a missed AT or so, but he's not often calling two streets of solid value betting. the only aces i put in his range are AQ (which had us beat from the start), AJ, A8 (which had us beat from the turn on) and MAYBE AK. weak Q's and the marginal possibility of a KJ or something are just as likely in my mind.

btw, i don't know about the turn bet. i feel we should be exercising pot control here and the fact that QJ and now any 8 has us beat only makes me feel better about not bloating the pot. the fact that he's a station makes me feel a little bit better about it and i know that there are a plethora of scare cards that can hit, but is this a 3 streets of value type hand? you're making it so that even if a scare card comes on the river you'll have to push if you want to bet at all on the river

[bjsaust]

Is there a point to this thread?

[surviva316]

Is there a point to this thread?

i was actually wondering the same thing. if he's so certain about his fold as to refer to calling here as "funny," then i'd have to say no

[Robb]

PSSS: my river game is a leak. if he checks to us i'd check back. is this right? if i were OOP in this situation i would probably bet 3.5 or so. is this right?

P. S. stands for "post script."

So a PSSS is "post script script script."

If you add a 2nd post script after the first, it's a "post post script" or P. P. S. The third would be:

P. P. P. S.

Sorry about the nit-picking. The river is almost always read dependent, which is why lots of us suck at it. There are very few villains at the micros capable of check/calling 2 streets, then check/raising the river. If they're strong, they tend to fire the river. And yes, oop, don't give villain a chance to check behind when you feel you're ahead.

Wonderland, let's just suppose you're correct with your reads on each street, why not bet the WHOLE pot on flops and turns when you're ahead, then slow down (e.g. check/call) when you're certain you're behind. Or what about OVER-BETTING the pot. If they'll pay crazy odds to chase, and that's your read, try to find the MAXIMUM they'll pay to draw, and charge it. Get your chips in fast, and if they take 2 to 1 odds to draw to a hand's that 5 to 1 against hitting, gg Wonderland.

Seriously, think about YOU can do in these spots to get MORE chips in while ahead. Trying to play pot control against stations is exactly the wrong approach. You want to bet bigger on each street until you think they've got it (i.e. they "wake up"), then either ditch or call down the last few chips in your stack. If you're playing short stacked, you should be able to get the vast majority of the chips in by the turn. Consider this action:

Preflop: Hero is CO, raises behind 2 limpers to $0.60, MP limper calls.

Flop: Hero has TPTK, pot is $1.45. MP checks. Hero bets $2. (Yes, Hero just bet 1.4 x pot - woot!!) MP tanks, then calls.

Turn: Hero has TPTK unimproved, but both a SD and FD are looming. Pot is $5.50. Hero, playing an 80bb stack, has $5.40 behind, and shoves all-in. MP station calls with a naked FD + GSSD, and Hero profits 75% of the time the station misses his draw on the river.

Now, I'm not saying this line is correct all the time or even a lot of the time, but you've gotta start problem-solving these situations. You have control of your bets and very little else. You can't make them fold (btw, read that "you can't make them fold" article in the Beginner's Digest - it's important). But if they won't fold, what can you do to make their poker life absolutely miserable? What can you do to profit most from these "reads" you have on certain players' games?

If you only overbet the pot when you're strong, btw, that's very exploitable, so sometimes (when I was at 10nl) I'd do it with a combo hand or the nut flush draw in case I got called. But you're allowed to do ANYTHING, including checking behind and betting 2 x pot, whatever adjustment will destroy them. Think it through and try something, then report back how it worked out over 5 or 6 attempts.

you should play sum limit
then you'd know it's callable getting 5 to 1

[settecba]

nice post robb

[LawDude]

you should play sum limit
then you'd know it's callable getting 5 to 1

Very good advice.

[wonderland]

Robb, cool stuff!

I tried it tonight with good effect.

Starting to adjust more and with stations either give up and fold a lot or bet HARD. Seems ok actually, bit exploitable though so you need to do it at tables with about 30 ish hands on people.

So i would raise and get called by the usual. Hit the flop square on. Bell FULL pot at least. If they called, i would shove the turn. Sounds extreme but i'm not playing a full stack and often they aren't either. Thing is, coz they take the first hit on the flop you're getting some nice value and every now and then someone is gonna call the turn shove out of frustration or general fish looseness.

But if you cbet with air, you're fucked for the turn, coz the pot is gonna get bloated AND they can notice changes in your behaviour here if you don't act as full on as previously. That said you could use that to your advantage. Hit two pair on the turn and bet smaller etc.

[sil693]

if you cbetting, then shoving turn to make them fold (when they would call a smaller turn bet with crap anyway) then you are losing money sir.

[Robb]

Robb, cool stuff!

I tried it tonight with good effect.

Starting to adjust more and with stations either give up and fold a lot or bet HARD. Seems ok actually, bit exploitable though so you need to do it at tables with about 30 ish hands on people.

So i would raise and get called by the usual. Hit the flop square on. Bell FULL pot at least. If they called, i would shove the turn. Sounds extreme but i'm not playing a full stack and often they aren't either. Thing is, coz they take the first hit on the flop you're getting some nice value and every now and then someone is gonna call the turn shove out of frustration or general fish looseness.

But if you cbet with air, you're fucked for the turn, coz the pot is gonna get bloated AND they can notice changes in your behaviour here if you don't act as full on as previously. That said you could use that to your advantage. Hit two pair on the turn and bet smaller etc.

Two good things:
1. You're adjusting instead of complaining.
2. You realize that your action against stations is VERY exploitable to anyone who's thinking somewhat clearly.

Now that you see how stations CAN be attacked, we need to ratchet it back and attack them a bit better. Bombing the turn just drives out hands you'd like to come along. After potting the flop, you wanna put in just enough on the turn to charge the draws without driving them out. If they're really bad stations, about 2/3's pot is generally enough. That will leave some loose change on the river, depending on how full the stacks were to start, but you have to bet it yourself or call it if they donk into you.

Second, avoid exploitation presumes people are thinking, which they aren't. So don't worry too much. Also, they don't know what hand you have when you DON'T show down, so it's harder for someone to know exactly what you're doing than you think it is. It feels really exploitable, but honestly it's not.

But...if you're going to use the full psb on stations for value, you do need to add in a few psb's on other hands. I suggest big draws, to maximize your fold equity and get more of the chips in while you still have 2 streets to come and lots of outs. But don't crazy - just a few psb's that aren't TPTK+ (hoping to show them down for deception) will be enough so you're not easily exploitable.

Finally, make your reads and target the stations with these gashing value bets. When you have someone who can fold, resort to your more typical 2/3's to 3/4's psb for value.

Keep making adjustments, see how they react, see how playable the hands are in different scenarios, and pick your best lines to value town them with. Nice job, and good luck.

[Robb]

Villain is a 45/12/1.3 who has shown station-like tendencies. I only have 50 HH's on him, and haven't seen a showdown to confirm my suspicions. Fortunately, I picked up a monster, so I get to test my theory without much risk.

$0.5/$1 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($149.90)
Hero (UTG 1) ($105.50)
CO ($252.20)
BTN ($211.75)
SB ($218.35)
BB ($213.25)

Pre-flop: ($1.50, 6 players) Hero is UTG 1
UTG calls $1, Hero raises to $4.50, 4 folds, UTG calls $3.50

Flop: ($10.50, 2 players)

Flopped gin, obv, now what to bet? I'm praying he's caught a peice 'cuz I think he'll call a sizeable bet with anything as weak as a GSSD. Normally I cbet about 2/3's. But this station will call a psb just as often, imo.

UTG checks, Hero bets $10, UTG calls $10

Turn: ($30.50, 2 players)

Weeeee!! The board got more drawy, but that's a good thing, imo, since not many of the obvious draws completed. JT got there but anything with two spades is probably coming along for the ride. Hoping he has an Ace - 2 pair would be even better. I actually mis-clicked trying to bet $19 which sets up the river better. I mentioned this to Wonderland during his sweat - I think 2/3's psb is the right action here, but $20 or $21 seems like a "stronger" bet than $19, so I tend to bet the just-less-than-$20 amount when I'm really strong. Like stores always price things at $9.95 'cuz it feels like a lot less than $10. Dunno if it makes any difference to feesh.

UTG checks, Hero bets $17, UTG calls $17

River: ($64.50, 2 players)

OK, the BD flush just hit, which is a tad worrisome since stations tend to show up with draws that looked hopeless on the flop. But his range is extremely wide, w/ tons of Ax/Axs/sc's/pp's along with broadways that picked up some kind of combo/draw on the turn. Sure, I'm behind sometimes, but mainly I have his range absolutely crushed. Since he's a station (which we've confirmed on the flop and turn here), I think he'll call a lot when he's behind. Sometimes, I don't shove here, betting just a bit more than half of what's left to try to induce the shove, but he's a station. His biggest mistake is calling too much, so let's help him make the biggest mistake possible.

UTG checks, Hero goes all-in $74, UTG calls $74

Final Pot: $212.50
UTG shows:
Hero shows:


Hope this helps. Again, I think my turn bet is too small, and the only problem I have with this HH if I stack off is not getting in MORE on the turn when I'm ahead. I'd be wishing I bet $25 on the turn if he shows down a miracle draw that hit on the river. The key with stations is building a big pot early. The more of the stacks we can get in the middle before the big draws complete, the better off we are. And they're not folding even to strong, strong flop bets and turn bets.

[wonderland]

So can't believe people at 100nl call a raise with A4o.

But nice hand. Shitter is that if you had AK on this hand you'd have been fuked. And boy do i hate it when those hands go down, but hey it's a small percentage vs the other value town situations.

I actually feel an unprofessional sense of punishment/vengence when i take a stack off someone who called with near-garbage.

Thanks for adding to this thread Robb.

I have been really watching out for those value spots and, as you said before, how it ties into ranges. Ranges still baffles me because i'm often playing against someone with around 20 hands history. But the door has been opened now and that's what i need/beginners need - we hear the concept, learn what the concept is, then open the door to the channel of learning so we can start to begin growth in that direction.

[Robb]

Shitter is that if you had AK on this hand you'd have been fuked.

If I'm playing AK here, I pot the turn, too. At 10nl, I'm happy about betting 3 streets for value with AK on this board against this villain. At 100nl, I'm not so thrilled, but I'm probably calling off whatever river bet he makes.

[surviva316]

So can't believe people at 100nl call a raise with A4o.

But nice hand.

villain is 45/12, and it's safe to assume he's not getting AJ+, 22+ 45% of the time.

this might be why you're struggling with ranges a bit. 45 VPIP should VASTLY affect what hands you put your opponent on, even if it is "only over 20 hands".