Wonderland's OP (at last): TEN NL --- Move up and STAY UP

[wonderland]

After much requests from fellow micropiants, i have decided to record the memoirs of my struggle with chance and discipline, here in a blog thingy detailing my second arrival at 10nl, and how i am managing (hopefully) to stay here.

First attempt: BOOM went poker tracker as i exploded through 5nl like superman. 5k hands of blistering heater action, debris in the form of spades and diamonds peeling off my afterburn as i climbed quickly toward the 20 buy-in minimum and the glorious 10nl stake. I was going to be rich some day.

Thing is, it all went wrong after ONE hand (and maybe another mini hand). I was starting out by buying in for $8, test the water. I had worked my way up to $14.5 through good hard work. Got dealt 44 and called a raise multiway... wow, i thought, i'd like to hit that 4 please, take all dis munny. BAM. Four hits the flop like a left hook from the champeeen o' the wuurl. Bet, raise, re-raise, all-in i went against someone who had me covered. Flop was dry, something like J48 rainbow. Villain turns over 88. Having just come from 5nl, that felt like 3 buy-ins. Then i lost another $5 some place else and figured it was time to move back. Then i went on a two buy-in pisser at 5 too. Poker was not my friend.

This time round: I hit the forums and whined and whinged and even though i did it in a cute way, i still got a smacked bot from mods and other folk. But some heeded my sincere plea and offered much help. I ground my way up and studied more and played at different times of day etc. Now I was ready for 10nl @ 26 buy-ins and even more skill than last time.

First session: was scared shitless. I started ONE table and concentrated. Snapped at that note taking window as SOON as i smelled fish. After an hour i was just over a buy-in up and called it a sesh.

The feesh were hardcore. TOTAL calling stations beyond belief. TPGK was usually enough but i had to be careful, one such fish turned over the ace high flush against another guy. Don't get cocky, i thought. But then i look around and notice all the fish are gone and everyone's stats are red (my colour code for tag). Fuck. Well, it was a nice session so i walked away happy. But table selection at 10 will be double the job it was at 5.

Some thoughts on my lunchbreak stroll:

I thought of a list of poker priorities... here they are:

1) Bankroll Management (obviously)
2) Understanding variance and time frames of winning/playing
3) Poker attitude, the discipline, the focus, the psychology
4) The poker community/study thereof
5) position
6) Profitable pre flop ranges
7) Poker tracking software
8) Bet sizing
9) Learning odds, outs etc.
10) Ranges

This list is kind of loose. Had a hard time sorting it. But roughly that's what my top 10 priorities are. Feel free to write your own and correct me!

So, wish me luck in getting to a stable place in 10nl. As of today my BR = $270 and i think i shall start to relax when i get to $300 and feel totally settled at about $400. So that's my goal for now. Get settled and stable at around $400. Then the next op will be about getting to $25nl.

[Sasquach991]

First.

Good luck

[BooG690]

FINALLY!

Now we can have all your scattered thoughts in one place. Good luck bro!

[Robb]

nh, sir

If you don't mind I'll post some thoughts about what you should put in your blog/operation. I use the first couple of posts in my operation thread to keep a bunch of links to good articles and posts. Things I've written I wanna keep track of, and good posts and threads from others. I basically just reposted the best of that list for my 2k thread. I like putting in descriptions of why the thread makes a valuable read.

Next, I think all noobies - but especially you, Andy - could profit from reading BJaust's operation start to finish. Warning: LONG. Title is "Ben learns poker and builds a roll" and is like 13 pages these days. Ben does an awesome job of posting what he's learning, writing out the ranges he's putting people on, the maths behind it, etc. I've learned a ton from reading that blog the last 8 or 9 months, and given your concerns about some of the theory/maths side of poker, I would think you'd benefit from reading through as much of that as you can over the next few weeks.

Third, check out others' operations. I have 2 categories of op's I currently track: micro-pals I started with like BJaust and Daven who are now playing 100nl and 200nl respectively, and guys a couple levels ahead of me like XTR, Jack Vance, Griffey and so forth. I chose them based on their high quality posts in the forums, and I follow their threads to hear what they're learning and to draw inspiration by hearing about 10k months and such. I will likely add a 3rd category soon - noobies/micro-grinders whose progress I am following. I like the daily doses from the 3 or 4 that update regularly, though sometimes I don't have time to get through all of them when lots of folks are posting essays. You will be amazed how much listening to others' thoughts will inform your own learning and poker journey.

About your list of priorities, here's my suggestions:

1) Bankroll Management (obviously)
2) Understanding variance and time frames of winning/playing
3) Poker attitude, the discipline, the focus, the psychology
4) The poker community/study thereof
5) position
6) Profitable pre flop ranges
7) Poker tracking software
8) Bet sizing
9) Learning odds, outs etc.
10) Ranges

3 1 6 5 10 8 9 2 7 4

[dranger7070]

Yo Andy, bout time u got one of these! I'll be following this. I like Robb's suggestion of going through other ppls blogs, it certainly makes for an interesting read sometimes at least.

Later man! Good variance in pwning the 10nl donkfish.

[wonderland]

Thanks Robb, i have bookmarked that Bjaust op and shall get into that plus the other stuff. Many thanks, useful sheit!

So, first two sessions and i'm up 2 buy-ins. Graph looks demonic from the last 4 sessions i've had. Tail end of 5nl i was winning multiple buy-ins.

First impressions. It's like 5nl on steroids really. Apeshit bad players plus competent tags. But i'm not playing my A game. Keep getting ok hands OOP that i know beat villain's range but don't know how far to call my TPGK. My stats look awful, i'm limping a lot because i know like if i get PP UTG or anything for that matter, i'm gonna get at least two calls.

So if i start to cut out reasonably good hands from my OOP opening range/calling range, i'll end up playing about 12% of hands. So i'm kind of rusty thus far.

Here is a hand that i think i maybe could have played better? but the other guy played it worse.

http://weaktight.com/1053563

So i'm just trying to get comfortable. I'm not buying in for a full stack and i am on scared money. Lots of -EV ingredients but i can't escape the psychology of being fresh in the stake. It's such a delicate feeling.

This will change when i've been doing ok at the stake for just a bit longer. So don't worry. But until then i may be inclined to play a bit weak *scratches head*

Oh, here is a hand i played AWFULLY.

http://weaktight.com/1053597

Totally had the villain on a straight but just couldn't believe that i was that unfortunate, so spewed in disbelief. ALWAYS be careful when you have two broadways paired, because OTHER broadway combos are always in the villain's calling range. It's totally reasonable for the villain here to have JQ.

[dranger7070]

Hand 1: Meh, flop check is obviously fine. Turn c/r is meh. I'd probably just lead, although you may have gotten more money out of him by doing what you did, ALTHOUGH, he may have raised your turn bet, which would have allowed you to get even more of your stack in before the river. At which point you probably could have gotten it all in.

Hand 2: Once he minraises your turn, I'd be a little leery. Here's a tip that will save you a TON of money at 10nl: PEOPLE MINRAISE WITH THE NUTS/VIRTUAL NUTS ALL THE TIME! This is seriously so rarely a bluff, that I fold TPTK, top and bottom pair, etc. I mean, I need to have a decently big hand to continue. Which sounds ridiculous, but trust me.

I mean, you still have a solid hand, so I would probably flat the raise, c/c a small-medium size bet on the river. If he bets like 3/4 pot or something I probably gtfo out though.

[Robb]

Hand 1 is fine until the river, where your first bet should be at least half pot, and your final action should be a shove.

Hand 2 is fine until the turn, where you have 4 outs to the full house and can probably bet/call but not bet/raise. Ease of out the hand on the river unless you spike the boat or unless he bets like 1/5 pot. The trouble in these spots is exactly what you said - 2 pair broadway hands can so easily make villain a better hand, or a bigtime draw, or a combo, that's it's extremely difficult to know where you're at. Gotta listen to his bets, and ditch to a big river bet, imo.

[daven]

First impressions (of 10nl). Apeshit bad players plus competent tags.

start by assuming that even those with TAG-like stats are crap. It's a fair assumption.

can't comment on the hand if you don't give any reads, even 'no reads' is a read.

kill 10nl

[wonderland]

So, the move up is still going well. Some, i would say, friendly variance rather than possitive. Just normal i guess, like someone 3bet shoved on me today, i had KK so i called. They show down 77. So fair i would say.

Ah, the graph is doing well. Check it:



So that's 3 buy-ins over 4 small sessions, about 1.3k hands. My rate has gone up from -15BB/100 (the downswing) to 5Bb/100. One more buy-in to my $300 mini-goal.

I exclusively start tables now. Just wish my HU game was a bit better. I lost like 30bb over 8 hands spread evenly to one fish who just went apeshit agro on me then left.

But so far they're all so bad, it's great. Tell you what though, starting tables + time of day + fishy stakes + really tightening up my positional play/understanding = $$$.

I agree with people's HH comments, seems reasonable.

Robb, i will correct you on ONE thing though... that top 10 list, you put the community last and i actually think it should come pretty much first. I promise you i would not be playing poker now were it not for a few key people in the community, and i would have had NO clue what i was doing. What are your thoughts?

[Keith]

Robb, i will correct you on ONE thing though... that top 10 list, you put the community last and i actually think it should come pretty much first. I promise you i would not be playing poker now were it not for a few key people in the community, and i would have had NO clue what i was doing. What are your thoughts?

Have to agree with Andy here , If it wasn't for the FTR regs who have been there and done what we're now doing most of us would be going nowhere. I will openly admit that its only from finding FTR that I took the plunge to switch from freerolls to cash play.
Also really have to say thanks to you again Robb , it was your guide that I started with , and even if I maybe didn't follow it too well , it set the ideas in place for me to work on.

A

[lolzzz_321]

Ah, the graph is doing well. Check it:

http://www.stayinwonderland.com/clie...art-of-10.gif]

Forget to pay your hosting bill?

[lolzzz_321]

it's back

[dranger7070]

Here's the links to my Op/blog things. First one is my start from $10 on (its like 7 or 8 pages of me rambling, so obviously a good read ) to $600. 2nd one is obviously my start from $600 and 25nl to taking shots at 100nl (probaly ~$4k).

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...te-t78573.html
4:16 PM

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...nl-t84527.html

[wonderland]

ooh man what a sesh.

exhausting.

Was planning on venting a whole post about how much tonight FUCKING sucked until i was in the biggest pot of my poker career thus far.

http://weaktight.com/1061618

Was a buy-in down before this. And coz of this hand i can say that a) i'm up one buy-in a day since starting 10nl and b) i'm a buck away from reaching my $300 mile stone (coz of rake i think! otherwise i'd be right on the money).

But... at first... oh what a sesh. Symptoms:

1. Getting fuck all cards. I think over a 20 minute 2-table stretch the best hand i had was A9s
2. When i would finally get a hand i'd hit TOTAL FUCKING AIR against a whale calling planet agro donk fish cunt sucking donk chip pisser
3. Type of donk above present on each table
4. Bluffs ensued, forcing myself to win money
5. Bluffs were being called with TOTAL AIR which happened to beat my total air.

This went on for 2 hours until i hit the above hand.

Watched a grinderschool vid (or started to) on fold equity and ranges. I need to finish it but it was HAAAARDCOOORE mathy. Man i just can't believe how apeshit the maths can be in poker. Just wish my brains weren't so primitive, i doubt i'll ever have a sharp eye for it. That worries me in terms of the long term future. I'd have to have Robb teach me like a child with a blackboard.

So, been buying in for a smaller stack until i find my feet. Like $6 and i said that when i get to $300 i'll buy in for $8 and at $340 i'll buy in for $10. This may sound silly but i just want to minimise potential spew until i'm firmly IN my stake.

[wonderland]

balls, why aint anyone give me love for my AA hand?? why does one make an OP if not for that!

So... still sucking. Only made like $3 over an hour two-tabling today. Just NOT GETTING CAAAARDS.

I had KK 4 times in that hour and every single time it folded to me or the 3bet folded them out.

Missing every damn flop, so i'm nitting up and not bluffing at all. Although i am firing if i sense weakness.

Doing my brains in. Want Dranger's munniez :/

[dranger7070]

Hahaha. HU4ROLLZ?

[wonderland]

stop being so aggressive, all those wins have made you tilt-drunk!

no but we should sweat soon actually. I feel a bit stangant. When's good?

[dranger7070]

Idk, you playing right now? I'll get on skype and shoot you an IM.

[Micro2Macro]

nice blog, ill be following like the rest of the plague. Gl with the grind!

[daven]

balls, why aint anyone give me love for my AA hand?? why does one make an OP if not for that!

i like it when aces hold for the good guy... nice table

unless i'm the bad guy, this just in while i was typing
http://weaktight.com/1064528

[Keith]

unless i'm the bad guy, this just in while i was typing
http://weaktight.com/1064528

holy **** I'd be rather pissed off losing that pot

[Monsieur_chat]

Liking the op wonderland, keep it up

And Daven that hand is nom nom nom.

[wonderland]

Daven you absolutely sick fuck.

Now, describe in great detail your physiology after that hand came to pass.

[wonderland]

FUCKING BASTAAAAAAAAARDS

So i went on a heater today and got up to 1.5 buy ins, $15. I thought, hmm, i wanted an early night, right now would be a great time to finish.

WHY WILL I NEVER LISTEN TO THIS VOICE. IT FUCKING KNOWS SOMETHING.

I then lost $12 in about 20 hands all from missing flops, being 3bet and having cbets called. Oh and one charming hand... how many times have you had this:

AQ and the flop comes down AJ... bet big... called... turn is whatever... bet big, called AGAIN... river is K.. they show QT. QUEEN FUCKING TEN to a 4x raise.

So i look through my poker tracker sessions and it's like: eek, down quite a bit on that sesh. Order hands by ammount lost.. most ammount lost 0.70c?? eh?? then i scroll down and see about 5 entries of that and about 10 entries of 0.30c. Replay the hands and they're all me raising IP with broadways, getting called by 1 or 2 idiots and missing. Or the above scenario. Getting 3bet a lot, often all in by half stacks.

Man this sucks balls. Still, at least i'm still up. Had no sessions in the red at all yet. Fuckin win rate is going down tho.

[Micro2Macro]

how many sessions have you had so far?

sounds like you quit to protect a win, maybe not this time since you played on, but others.

don't quit because you're up money, quit because you've either gotten tired/bored or the games have dried up.

remember that you'll only win about 50-60% of your sessions anyway, so losing some is just something you need to expect. I way I look around this myself is to count the fpp's I make each session and remind myself that they're still a form of profit - so every session you'll make profit from your fpps. (sounds like something an fpp pro would say but it's a good way at keeping positive about losing lol)

[wonderland]

Thanks Micro, that helps.

Yeah, i've won a lot lately, not like huge just consistent, infact i've finished every day in the green for the last 8 days of play. But @ 10nl i aint getting much fpp. Fine otherwise. Mmm, rake my back.

I blame dranger for his sick wins of late i think: where the fuck's my 2.5 buy-ins in one hour??

we sweat tomorrow wot wot. Show me the munniez.

Additional: I never quit just because i'm up. I've read Sklansky on this. But i am going to actually learn to stop playing when the voice in my head says: now would be a good time to finish and call it a profitable session. I have lost HUGE after ignoring that voice, repeatedly and consistently so, and ALWAYS because i tell myself: well, Sklansky wouldn't stop playing now. Now i say: i hear what you're saying Sklansky but i'm listening to my intuition from now on.

[Keith]

remember that you'll only win about 50-60% of your sessions anyway, so losing some is just something you need to expect. I way I look around this myself is to count the fpp's I make each session and remind myself that they're still a form of profit - so every session you'll make profit from your fpps. (sounds like something an fpp pro would say but it's a good way at keeping positive about losing lol)

phew ......i'm managing the 50% bit ...but jeez im swongy as hell.
Also 10NL doesn't half make a difference to the rate the fpp's roll in . I'm running about 20 per day ,5nl 1 was doing well to get 6 or 7

[Micro2Macro]

Yeah once you play 25nl you only need 25k hands or something like that to make GoldStar. You can pretty much count them on your fingers anywhere below it. (sorry for the semi-hijack wonderland)

[dranger7070]

Lol, dont blame me for your problems sir. Not my fault the fish insist on stacking off with J high to my top sets lol. But keep your chin up man, collect those EV things (whatever the hell those are, I never seem to cash them in ) and you will pwn these douchers. I mentioned this in BooG's blog: Try using pokerstove to figure out some hands you can call those 3bet shoves with (with the correct pot odds of course) vs those 20-30bb stacks. I think it will really open your eyes.

Keep your chin up man, see you tomorrow.

[Keith]

Try using pokerstove to figure out some hands you can call those 3bet shoves with (with the correct pot odds of course) vs those 20-30bb stacks. I think it will really open your eyes.

Well when I've called those 3bet shoves with aces kings and queens etc its weird what they are actually doing it with. Ive seen 84o and similar. They usually shove steal 10bb and leave. I guess if they succeed 3 out of 4 times they are making money.

[daven]

Daven you absolutely sick fuck.

Now, describe in great detail your physiology after that hand came to pass.

about the same as for this a day later:
http://weaktight.com/1070344

[wonderland]

WOT! that total cock sucker. AAARGH. Who the FUUUK calls a 3bet with 89o and then a big flop bet with 8 high!!!

Also... for me i think i'm not playing enough hands. With the fish that are out there, like you say micro, i'm going to be winning probably around 60% of the time. So the more hands i get in the faster those results will normalise (or normalize as they say state-side).

Can't wait for 25nl.

but first... ranges.. and thin value.

[Keith]

Also... for me i think i'm not playing enough hands. With the fish that are out there, like you say micro, i'm going to be winning probably around 60% of the time. So the more hands i get in the faster those results will normalise (or normalize as they say state-side).

do you mean more hands as in total number or a higher percentage of those dealt?. Check my graph in my OP for this month and I'm playing about 30/22 and boy is it swingy. Some of the downs were coolers and to a certain extent I'm still feeling my way at 10 nl at the moment but getting the hang of it . For the first time last night I had a fantastic read on the player on my right . He'd lead 4bb from cut off and I'd flat it. Cbet the flop which i flatted and then he checked the turn. I bet 3/4 pot and he folded ...did this about 7 times altogether and at the end I was doing it with ATC. It was SOOO obvious that he'd missed the flop and turn when he did this and first couple of times I had hit the flop well enough to continue in calling down and then the pattern clicked.

[wonderland]

damn, hate swings.

note any leaks, usually in the forms of bluffs or maybe playing too many hands? i think i'm totally gonna tighten my range and play more tables because i'm getting called from the blinds or the guy behind me who limp calls every hand, and then missing every flop. Huge leak.

Coz they call all cbets anyway. Got to tighten when these things are present. This is why sometimes i hate calling stations, they cost you a lot.

I meant total number of hands.

[daven]

. This is why sometimes i hate calling stations, they cost you a lot if you don't adjust

fyp

[wonderland]

Oh i'm going to be at this stake for a long, long, long time. I can feel it.

http://weaktight.com/1072837

[wonderland]

Current BR: about $315
Goal: around $350 so i can feel that $5nl is never coming back

So had a good weekend. Up almost 3 buy-ins. Had a shit thursday, lost almost a buy-in and a half so my ambition for this week was to erase that and i did double my goal.

Still buying in for around $6 and adding more if i feel i need to. Still feeling scared to buy in for a full whack coz i don't want to lose all that on some sick beat and feel scared/demotivated.

At this stage i'm feeling quite delicate.

Current learnings are: extracting precise value as well as betting for thin value and also a bit of ranges. Hard to do the ranges thing, i'm gathering as much info as i can on the subject and hoping it just sinks in almost subconsciously until i get a proper choke hold on the subject.

Robb has been essential in this learning plus him and others have been a real support in my sanity. I moan a lot on the forums and, you know what, i sort of need to for now, it's catharsis and i'm newish. I can do that more here and even more in private messaging but guys, when i'm down and someone picks me up, tells me they're going through the same or been through worse, it fuckin makes a difference to my motivation and resolve. So cheers!

So anywho, let's hope the fish continue to pay out and i can start a new OP on going from about $350 to $600 and the greatest challenge of all: 25nl.

Rakeback and withdrawals shall ensue!

[Robb]

Hope I'm not jacking up your thread, but here's some hands against the mega-fish I thought you'd be interested in. Like we were discussing via pm, sometimes we don't have many HH's against the big fish. No worries (see Hand 2) - just make a read and go with it.

Hand 1. Villain is 50/17/2 and I have 350 HH's on him. When I get to this river, I checked his river AF which is 7, and his W$SD = 40%. I felt like he would have bet his draw if he had 2 spades, and he can't have J or 6 or would have bet flop imo. Turn seems like a bluff or 2 diamonds. River stats show he capable of bluffing. I probably don't call this without good stats the make me feel like the W$SD and river AF stats are solid estimates.

$0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($74.95)
CO ($65.35)
Hero (BTN) ($69.10)
SB ($43.55)
BB ($52.55)

Pre-flop: ($0.75, 5 players) Hero is BTN
1 fold, CO calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2.25, 2 folds, CO calls $1.75

Flop: ($5.25, 2 players)
CO checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($5.25, 2 players)
CO bets $3.50, Hero calls $3.50

River: ($12.25, 2 players)
CO bets $9.50, Hero calls $9.50

Final Pot: $31.25
CO shows:


Hand 2. Villain is 38/33/17 (wow! AF =17) over 80 hands. So he can probably 2 barrel / 3 barrel air. By the turn, I've decided he doesn't have 2 diamonds. Didn't like the river, much, 'cuz I think he has a single diamond here a good bit, but it worked out.

$0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($54.60)
UTG 1 ($47.50)
CO ($51.10)
Hero (BTN) ($121.25)
SB ($99.45)
BB ($50.75)

Pre-flop: ($0.75, 6 players) Hero is BTN
3 folds, Hero raises to $1.75, 1 fold, BB raises to $4.50, Hero calls $2.75

Flop: ($9.25, 2 players)
BB bets $5, Hero calls $5

Turn: ($19.25, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $10, BB goes all-in $41.25, Hero calls $31.25

River: ($101.75, 2 players)

Final Pot: $101.75
BB shows:


Hand 3. Same villain from Hand 1, an orbit or two later. Not too worried about 3x even his range. River is obvious bluff and cheap to call even if I'm wrong.

$0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem
4 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
CO ($17.55)
BTN ($71.15)
SB ($25.50)
Hero (BB) ($58.70)

Pre-flop: ($0.75, 4 players) Hero is BB
2 folds, SB calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.50, SB calls $1

Flop: ($3, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2, SB calls $2

Turn: ($7, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($7, 2 players)
SB bets $4, Hero calls $4

Final Pot: $15
SB shows:


I remember a thread where I was a smartass to either Bbickes or McatDog. I thought when I was at 10nl that those guys up in the nosebleeds didn't understand how to play the fish I was up against every other hand. Admittedly, there are fewer fish percentage-wise further up, but they're still out there. And (I think it was) Bbickes said something like: "A large part of our winnings even at 100nl+ come from finding the fish and exploiting them. We know how to play them 'cuz we've worked out the best ways to get their stacks, so it's pretty easy to give advice on the micros."

I'm rather embarrassed about my reply in that thread. Gotta admit when you're wrong. And thank everything that's holy in this world for the 50nl and 100nl fish without which I wouldn't be profiting nearly as much from poker!!

Hope these help you out.

[Keith]

how about an updated graph Andy......mines very erratic and I'm learning from it but atleast its still generally upwards.
I've spotted a potential money maker at this stake that I need more experimentation with and its quite high variance so I ain't gonna spread it as anyone in the know would be able to exploit me . Another thing , why not get up to being full stacked so that you can make the most of your mega hands. Trying to lose the least isn't exactly a positive attitude. You can still minimise your losses by using the fold button when you aren't sure.

[wonderland]

Hi folks!

Doom and gloom from me today i'm affraid. Funny, was so pissed off i was about to end this OP but then noticed a couple of people had replied, now i don't have the heart

Robb, thanks for these, grrr (trying to calm temper) i had a hand just like these today and folded them. KQ on K high board, fish shoves the turn. Having such a bad night i folded, he shows K3s with the FD. I'm fucking things up all over the place trying to get to grips with thin value... what the FUCK is it with people who check the flop when they hit!? i get second pair and go: wheee, excellent.

Had KK the last 6 times where people folded to me so i saw no action. Finally get called by a shorty with AQ on A high board, he raises me and i end up shoving just because he's short.

Funny anecdote though! my mate walks in and says: here, next time you get pocket six and you need a third six, use this... and he hands me a playing card of 6c. So we giggled. Then next thing you know i get 66, like the NEXT hand... and a six hit the flop!

But yeah, generally hitting shit all on the flop, checks to me, i bet, they raise or call with a good hand. Or get 3bet shoved by a short stack or just 3bet by a regular stack. Or i hit but they hit better. Yadda yadda. I mean things aren't awful but fuck man, i just HATE playing poker these days... i sit down shitting myself becuase no matter how much i learn it seems to make little difference to the fish as my graph flatlines when they take my money. So i sit down for 2 solid hours and just piss money. And every week i despise my job more and want to climb higher in poker with more desperation, and i'm doing it one fucking pissing micro big blind at a time. It's grim.

Keith, hmm, pm me your secret, i shall buy you an ice cream. No point posting my graph. It shoots up steeply at the end of 5 going into ten then we hit bart simpson terrirory. Not big swings but kinda flat.

Sorry to moan but the tilt has been coursing through my veins tonight. In a nut shell, sick of crawling on my belly through all this, spending loads of time learning just to get creamed by one shot buy-in loosers. Wish my learning was reflected in my win rate.

[Robb]

Wish my learning was reflected in my win rate.

It is. Your learning will ALWAYS be reflected in your LONG TERM win rate. Sorry for the rough session. You gotta just shake it off. Seriously. I looked back at my operation thread posts from several months ago, where I had an absolutely abysmal session - my worst day of poker ever. Lost $107, 3 BI's at 25nl and then 4 more at 10nl after hitting stop loss and moving down. I kinda lol'd. Just a buy-in these days.

You'll be there in a few months, where these early struggles seem like no thing at all. Just shake it off and play good poker.

[Micro2Macro]

Wish my learning was reflected in my win rate.

It is. Your learning will ALWAYS be reflected in your LONG TERM win rate. Sorry for the rough session. You gotta just shake it off. Seriously. I looked back at my operation thread posts from several months ago, where I had an absolutely abysmal session - my worst day of poker ever. Lost $107, 3 BI's at 25nl and then 4 more at 10nl after hitting stop loss and moving down. I kinda lol'd. Just a buy-in these days.

You'll be there in a few months, where these early struggles seem like no thing at all. Just shake it off and play good poker.

Am I like the ghost of you robb? I seem to fall into similar patterns that you have in the past. My 'Black Monday' of poker is nearly identical to this.

[bjsaust]

i sit down shitting myself becuase no matter how much i learn it seems to make little difference to the fish as my graph flatlines when they take my money.

Dont sit.

If you cant play confidently and in good frame of mind. Dont play. Find some way to fix that. Maybe exercise a bit before playing, maybe take a shower. Maybe do some breathing exercises. Or maybe just dont play. There are times its more +EV to not play than to play at all.

[daven]

Still buying in for around $6 and adding more if i feel i need to.

remember that 50bb poker is a different beast to 100bb poker.
I'm sure you have read this already, but just in case:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...light=strategy

the greatest challenge of all: 25nl.

nope, this is the next great challenge. There are many that are greater, enjoy working through them!

[Robb]

Wish my learning was reflected in my win rate.

It is. Your learning will ALWAYS be reflected in your LONG TERM win rate. Sorry for the rough session. You gotta just shake it off. Seriously. I looked back at my operation thread posts from several months ago, where I had an absolutely abysmal session - my worst day of poker ever. Lost $107, 3 BI's at 25nl and then 4 more at 10nl after hitting stop loss and moving down. I kinda lol'd. Just a buy-in these days.

You'll be there in a few months, where these early struggles seem like no thing at all. Just shake it off and play good poker.

Am I like the ghost of you robb? I seem to fall into similar patterns that you have in the past. My 'Black Monday' of poker is nearly identical to this.

We've all been there, Andy. Listen to BJsaust's advice - you gotta find a way to quit freaking out so bad about playing.

[PlayToWin]

balls, why aint anyone give me love for my AA hand??

Kinda late, but just found ur Op. Here's some luv. Way to get it it in PF with AA! IMO if you don't get it in preflop, I'd rather have KK. They're not as pretty and easier to get away from. Know what I mean? Aces suck and it seems better for villian to get AA. LOL. I shoved AI on the river with a set of tens and, after a loooong time, villian called and lost with his Aces. I felt bad for him..........

[bjsaust]

AA played the champions way!

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (CO) ($100)
Button ($97.65)
SB ($134.85)
BB ($92.05)
UTG ($125.65)
MP ($34)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q, K
UTG calls $1, MP bets $4.50, Hero calls $4.50, 3 folds, UTG raises $7, 1 fold, Hero calls $3.50

Flop: ($22) 8, 5, Q (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($22) Q (2 players)
UTG bets $3.50, Hero calls $3.50

River: ($29) 4 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $15, UTG calls $15

Total pot: $59

Results:
UTG didn't show AA ldo
Hero had Q, K (three of a kind, Queens).
Outcome: Hero won $56.05


Obviously I lost value here, for some reason I was worried he had AQ, but I missed the fact he limp/minraised pf. I'd have raised turn and bet river much bigger if I'd noticed that. Anyway, its more fun to laugh at a guy who gets minimal value while ahead and most of the money goes in while behind.

[wonderland]

hey guys.

Half stack play.. hmmm, i was hoping for some more insight or maybe i just didn't comprehend it too much. Also, i don't think players that i play against care about... infact let me rephrase that: players at my stake haven't HEARD of implied odds. I say my stake, i mainly mean the fishy times i play.

I think my issue last night was just that i wasn't folding. Then i was losing so much i was looking for excuses to fold. I think it could be said that: if the circumstances are just right, it would be correct to fold a massive amount of the time in a session. Last night's sesh was one of them. Getting KK and being called by a short stack, an ace comes down and he bets and what can you do?? well fold i guess... or shorties 3bet shoving keeps happening.

Coz what happens is i get dealt bad cards for an hour and start bluffing/calling when i should be folding. Been toying with the idea of recognising when cards and tables are just plain shit and nitting the fuck up. Then recognising when the cards are being fair and returning to normal game.

[wonderland]

Here is a hand i struggled with, totally confident on the flop, thought it was xmas. Villain was 37/5/1.5

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG Hero ($5.70)
CO noonecrylate ($5.70)
BTN 1longfella ($7.85)
SB niko_la972 ($10.40)
BB pfa14 ($5.20)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 5 players) Hero is UTG
Hero raises to $0.30, 3 folds, pfa14 calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.65, 2 players)
pfa14 bets $0.10, Hero raises to $0.40, pfa14 calls $0.30

Turn: ($1.45, 2 players)
pfa14 bets $0.10, Hero raises to $1.20, pfa14 raises to $2.30, Hero calls $1.10

River: ($6.05, 2 players)
pfa14 bets $1, Hero calls $1

Final Pot: $8.05
pfa14 shows:
Hero shows:

pfa14 wins $7.70 ( won +$3.70 )
Hero lost -$4



balls... pokerstove says i was a coin toss on the flop
----
Was just reviewing my hands and a lot of it was me either hitting the flop or getting massive draws and (this was very common) the villain just hammering into me and i can't let the draw go because it's too big. Or calling all my missed cbets, the two-barrel thing also not taking it down. Amazing the shoves i made where i'd normally have TPTK i just had good draws, and the fuckers would call with just one weak pair, like paired 7 on a 7 high board.

[wonderland]

i was literally wiping blood off the monitor after this hand, and i played it terribly as well.

gonna take a break from poker for a while.

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG Hero ($7.50)
CO jendu85 ($15.20)
BTN thumbz555 ($10.00)
SB Jessia-Dani ($3.40)
BB Cloud990 ($11.15)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 5 players) Hero is UTG
Hero calls $0.10, jendu85 calls $0.10, 1 fold, Jessia-Dani calls $0.05, Cloud990 checks

Flop: ($0.40, 4 players)
Jessia-Dani checks, Cloud990 bets $0.30, Hero calls $0.30, 1 fold, Jessia-Dani folds

Turn: ($1, 2 players)
Cloud990 bets $0.65, Hero calls $0.65

River: ($2.30, 2 players)
Cloud990 checks, Hero bets $1.10, Cloud990 raises to $3.30, Hero calls $2.20

Final Pot: $8.90
Cloud990 shows:
Hero shows:

Cloud990 wins $8.50 ( won +$4.15 )
jendu85 lost -$0.10
Jessia-Dani lost -$0.10
Hero lost -$4.35

[AdamThePirate]

i was literally wiping blood off the monitor after this hand, and i played it terribly as well.

gonna take a break from poker for a while.

5 players

($0.15, 5 players) Hero is UTG
Hero calls $0.10

lol...

Best taking a break if you're not feeling too good, yo.

[dranger7070]

Raise or fold UTG with KJ (any hand really). Open limping is pretty bad.

[BooG690]

Open-limping UTG at 10NL? I thought we got rid of that habit (I know you did it at 5NL...but time to rid ourselves of this). This is exactly what happens when you allow a 47o to see the flop for free.

[wonderland]

i'd been raising repeatedly with my medium strength hands and getting punished for it, so tiltified and was back to limping. Just on perma-tilt these days.

[wonderland]

i said i'd have a break but i find that for me, the best time to play poker is a while after a crap few sessions because i'm forced to apply what i've learned and pay extra attention.

So i went for some 5nl. Man i was wrong, the difference between the two stakes is quite tangible. I got rid of most of today's crap and could have got more but had to finish.

Interesting, i think one appreciates the difference in the new/current stake vs the old one by re-visiting it after a long break.

People fold more in 10nl and yet...
People understand a bit more about thin value, so might call with 2nd pair but not out of stupidity but out of awareness
People limp more in 5nl and let you see flops
People will bet their draws and check the river when they miss at 5nl giving you good reads on when to fire.

etc.

So i think i might grind down there for a while, take my own advise which is to drop down to get confidence and morale back.

I think i really need to reconfigure my strategy, maybe i haven't adjusted yet. Also interesting to see how my skill has developed and can be seen quite clearly in view of dropping down. Like the matrix or something... like: ah, he's checking there, i can put him more easily on a FD or SD. So clear now.

[Keith]

a light hearted approach

i sit down shitting myself becuase no matter how much i learn it seems to make little difference to the fish as my graph flatlines when they take my money.

It a lot more hygeinic in these situations to move the laptop to the bathroom.

Maybe exercise a bit before playing, maybe take a shower.

I think the showers currently needed after the session

[Keith]

I think my issue last night was just that i wasn't folding. Then i was losing so much i was looking for excuses to fold. I think it could be said that: if the circumstances are just right, it would be correct to fold a massive amount of the time in a session. Last night's sesh was one of them. Getting KK and being called by a short stack, an ace comes down and he bets and what can you do?? well fold i guess... or shorties 3bet shoving keeps happening.

Have a good think about this situation. Did anyone call them down?. How big was the pot at their Shove relative to their stack size and your stack size. How often have they actually got the A or have you just assumed they have it .

[bjsaust]

QJs I just take my incredible pot odds on the turn, he's not folding whatever crap hand he has now which is still ahead of us.

KJs just fold that UTG, as played just check behind the river.


Again, if you feel yourself playing differently due to tilt (or because you think you're running bad), just close the tables down. Its at times like this that you can spew off a few buyins in an incredibly short period of time.

[Keith]

first hand on thios page reminds me of this hand I played the other night
$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG Hero ($11.75)
UTG+1 pitbullchile ($2.15)
CO ploperine ($13.25)
BTN COTE87 ($19.40)
SB PIMS220 ($13.65)
BB messius007 ($14.20)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 6 players) Hero is UTG
Hero raises to $0.40, 2 folds, COTE87 calls $0.40, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.95, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.70, COTE87 calls $0.70

Turn: ($2.35, 2 players)
Hero bets $1.50, COTE87 raises to $3, Hero calls $1.50

River: ($8.35, 2 players)
Hero bets $3.50, COTE87 goes all-in $15.30, Hero goes all-in $4.15

Final Pot: $23.65
Hero shows:
COTE87 shows:

COTE87 wins $30.15 ( won +$10.75 )
Hero lost -$11.75

villain I had already stacked on another table when he bluffed all in with Air which coloured my judgement slightly but his stats are
326 hands -$15.05 25.3/19 5.4% 3bet WTSD% 42 W$SD34.8

[Keith]

I think my issue last night was just that i wasn't folding. Then i was losing so much i was looking for excuses to fold. I think it could be said that: if the circumstances are just right, it would be correct to fold a massive amount of the time in a session. Last night's sesh was one of them. Getting KK and being called by a short stack, an ace comes down and he bets and what can you do?? well fold i guess... or shorties 3bet shoving keeps happening.

Have a good think about this situation. Did anyone call them down?. How big was the pot at their Shove relative to their stack size and your stack size. How often have they actually got the A or have you just assumed they have it .

looking through my hand histories 1 guy 5 hands


$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
CO Hero ($10.20)
BTN COTE87 ($32.35)
SB PIMS220 ($13.90)
BB InvisibleA ($1.75)

Pre-flop: ($0.25, 6 players) Hero is CO
Hero calls $0.10, RemKnot checks, ploperine calls $0.10, COTE87 raises to $0.80, 2 folds, Hero folds, RemKnot goes all-in $4.35, ploperine folds, COTE87 calls $3.55

Flop: ($9.05, 2 players)

Turn: ($9.05, 2 players)

River: ($9.05, 2 players)

Final Pot: $9.05
RemKnot shows:
COTE87 shows:

RemKnot wins $8.60 ( won +$4.25 )
Hero lost -$0.10
ploperine lost -$0.10
COTE87 lost -$4.35

[AdamThePirate]

gl wonderland, but stop open limping plz.

[wonderland]

Some sick hands.

You did good with your read i guess. Although the guys stats are ok, no?

I did this with a guy who's stats were lit up screaming: good player!

and he was in the bb, unraised... i KNEW he had that 7 but *shrug*

Discipline 1: reads and ranges
Discipline 2: FOLLOWING YOUR READS!!

[wonderland]

Been trying to figure out how one makes money from playing poker again. On a bit of a break-even stretch and as i observe the feel of the game, it feels like a game of luck with maybe a tiny edge or two.

The main edges being that i raise with reasonable to good hands in position and that i can fold by having SOME understanding of ranges vs fish who can't fold or they can but not until they are 110% sure they're beat. Oh and the odd feel for thin value.

It seems i raise, get called by worse and then it's a matter of luck. Today i can not tell you how many times an ace hit the flop when i had less than an ace. These days i bet anyway because they can only call with the ace. Either they call with 2nd pair and i showdown fuck all or they actually do have a weak A.

So i'm really trying to see if i should or shouldn't be winning here. It feels chaotic. Like FUCK he has it, FUCK i don't, i STILL don't have it, fuck... YES I HAVE IT!!! oh... why are they all folding. And it's like, amonst all that chaos (literally, mathematically) am i supposed to win?

I can imagine breaking even using skill but certainly not sure how people 'destroy' their stake, even down here @ 10. Keith, you finging this at all? swingy you say?

One theory is that a good poker player will be in with the randomness and chaos but can eek out that bit more profit and also fold more wisely.

Example here, villain is like 72/20 and is my NEMESIS. He wants my blood coz i took near enough a buy-in off him. Calling everything i have and waiting to get revenge. Here i sensed danger and i can't articulate more than that, so i lost minimum, but he could have got me to call more than i did. So this is my example of minimizing loss:

$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG J@sonB0urne* ($4.25)
CO jorgepk ($3.47)
BTN Hero ($14.75)
SB radon99 ($5.92)
BB cptron66 ($5.67)

Pre-flop: ($0.07, 5 players) Hero is BTN
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.15, 1 fold, cptron66 calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.32, 2 players)
cptron66 checks, Hero bets $0.25, cptron66 calls $0.25

Turn: ($0.82, 2 players)
cptron66 checks, Hero checks

River: ($0.82, 2 players)
cptron66 bets $0.80, Hero calls $0.80

Final Pot: $2.42
Hero shows:
cptron66 shows:

cptron66 wins $2.32 ( won +$1.12 )
Hero lost -$1.20

Guy ended up $13 down @ 5nl!

So yeah, can't quite see the light at the end of the tunnel at the mo. I feel like i was playing good 5nl, bit loose but i was limping a little coz i felt my post flop game was tighter than the competition... so maybe i'm due another sweat or something... i dunno.

[Parasurama]

That's pretty sick that you didn't raise the river, what were you thinking?

[dranger7070]

"Losing the minimum" ldo

[wonderland]

WHAT IS THE "acronym Renton hates" ???

Like i say, i knew something was up... sort of. And i put a king in his river firing range so i thought ah, it's a split pot at the VERY least.

[Micro2Macro]

lol, this is a funny hand because I faced one literally the same when I was at the stage you were in microgrinding and I just called too. Villain has quad 8's and the flush draw completed also. I paired my king.

But I can read souls....ask dranger

[BooG690]

WHAT IS THE "acronym Renton hates" ???

Like i say, i knew something was up... sort of. And i put a king in his river firing range so i thought ah, it's a split pot at the VERY least.

El dee oh...like duh, obviously.

[AdamThePirate]

I agree with renton on the hate.

[bjsaust]

I'd have raised the KQ hand for sure. Zeebo theorem, he thinks any boat is the nuts and wont fold. This is the kind of spot where its ok to get stacked.

[Micro2Macro]

I'd have raised the KQ hand for sure. Zeebo theorem, he thinks any boat is the nuts and wont fold. This is the kind of spot where its ok to get stacked.

Strongly agree.

He's 70/20, he's dumb. Tx stacks off here, even made flushes probably.

[wonderland]

{duplicate post}

[wonderland]

So i shall attempt to re-write my lost post.

Played a half decent sesh last night and have wiped out some of the losses of the last few days to bring my bankroll to the highest it's ever been. Not hugely, but it's just nice to make that lead.

BR = $320

Almost to the point where i can fully say that i'm wedged in tight to my new stake.

So when i played i tried to think afresh of how the hell do i have an advantage here, how do i make money? Firstly i played two tables and watched like a hawk. I start tables OR look for tables with like two short stacks coz i know they'll be shoving with air and will generally be bad. Looking for avatars which are photographs of the players or a photo of a dog etc.

I would only open another table if i felt that one of the tables wasn't full of fish. God knows how ANYONE makes money from a table full of 25/15ers. Fuck getting AA/KK on the button, all you'd take are a few blinds.

So anyway, I mainly found it was a process of fish hunting. Finding the fish and playing off my ranges against theirs. From then on it was a case of being better post flop in terms of a) reading them b) getting the MOST value i could and c) folding when it was necessary. Those are three skills the fish don't have.

How many times do you see fish limping with AA/KK, checking the flop, min betting the turn hoping to get raised, going mad on the river but it's too late coz their villain has hit their flush with like J5s.

Value. I was in a hand with a shorty. By the turn i'd made a good hand, he had $1 left in his stack and the pot was about $1. So instead of betting $1 and putting him all in, i bet .50c on the turn and .50c on the river. Fish can actually fold a dollar bet on the turn if it means their whole stack i've noticed. Sometimes, betting smaller could be classed as gambling, but i feel when the time is right and over a lot of hands it will make good profit.

Also i was adjusting more. Tighten up and don't try to gl

So in answer to my own question, to make a notable difference in my stake, and thus profit:

1. find the fish!
2. establish their range and make notes when you see the ones who show down crap (i saw one guy lose $40 @ 5nl in 15 minutes by calling every bet and bluffing every street, never got a hand against him - damn)
3. based on the above, learn to get thin value from your medium hands.
4. again, based on how much of a station they are, get as much value as possible when you know you're ahead (one guy 3bet me with AJ, i had 88 and had 10/1 implied odds but i called anyway because i KNEW i'd stack him if i hit, i hit, i stacked, he called a 3/4 bet on a K8J flop with his AJ).
5. Stop limping without very good reads on people left to bet.
6. Fold more. I keep getting good draws and chasing to the river. I keep getting so many aces on the flop that aren't mine and just not believing villain can have the ace that often. This coincides with thin value and the part of thin value that requires you to give up once you realise you're not ahead.

Probably other things i forgot but i'm getting there slowly.

So, last time i tried this i stuck in a photo coz this is a blog and i wanted to share some of my lifey in here this is what i did last week! I even applied poker discipline to ride within my limits and not do anything stupid.



Be nice to do more of this if i gets good poker winnings!

Later folks!

[BooG690]

So when i played i tried to think afresh of how the hell do i have an advantage here, how do i make money? Firstly i played two tables and watched like a hawk. I start tables OR look for tables with like two short stacks coz i know they'll be shoving with air and will generally be bad. Looking for avatars which are photographs of the players or a photo of a dog etc.

Oh snap. Lockpull = fish! LOL JP. Nice job getting your bankroll up. Glad to hear it!

And that's a sick photo. Is that really you?