1/2 Flush on turn facing sudden river lead

[bspahn]

Vorpal: 16/12/2.3

I thought I played this hand OK, the question is on the river when do you shove and when do you just snap, I guess the question is how often would he play 2pr/set/str8 this way which you beat? he has $49 left after the $70 river lead.

I felt if he had a flush wouldn't he get it in on the turn here?
One small error I made I think is my turn bet was a hair too to get a nice river shove in, i think $40-$44 would have been better.

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG Charlotte83 ($199.00)
UTG+1 sebroberto ($197.00)
CO Vorpal666 ($174.25)
BTN Hero ($433.45)
SB munccis ($494.20)
BB -maldoror- ($203.00)

Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is BTN
2 folds, Vorpal666 raises to $7, Hero calls $7, munccis calls $6, 1 fold

Flop: ($23, 3 players)
munccis bets $2, Vorpal666 raises to $12, Hero calls $12, munccis folds

Turn: ($49, 2 players)
Vorpal666 checks, Hero bets $36, Vorpal666 calls $36

River: ($121, 2 players)
Vorpal666 bets $70, Hero raises to $331

Final Pot: $522

[dsaxton]

Pretty clear play.

we're shipping this river all day
we're calling with probably a set

[Renton]

i think with as much trouble as youve been having that you should probably not call pre, and 3bet or fold this hand


postflop fine

[bspahn]

i had a discussion with a good player yesterday about some poker stuff in general and it SEEMS i've had a big leak in my game:

i'm FLATTING a lot preflop IN position with sc type hands, he was saying they have almost no value and he only uses them as 3bets to "balance".

does everybody agree with this? i mean I know sc are basically beyond useless out of position (unless thers like a raise an 3 callers)

i thought in position they would be okay though, or is the argument basically that since you're not the aggressor you end up getting into way too many spots where you're chasing and throwing away money?

since i'm not used to 3betting sc in general, what am I looking for in flops - since most of them don't hit all that well (trips, big draws, flopped flushes/str8s)

just use sauces' guide and cbet Q/K/A flops etc and pay attention to what their 3bet calling ranges are oop in this case?

[Silly String]

IMO(after viewing your recent posts), you are playing your SCs too passively to profit from them postflop. I usually use them as 3bet fodder vs a wide PFRer's range(with low 4bet) and only call them when pot is multi-way or vs a villain with a very tight PFR'ing range.

[mixchange]

there are spots to 3bet SC's, there are spots to flat SC's in position. You have to recognize the right play for the right spot.

i definitely do not agree that sc's are mainly 3bet balance fodder. silly

[bspahn]

could you give me some examples where you prefer 3betting sc's or just flatting with them (in a HU situation) please

[kmind]

Funny, first thing I noticed was that I'd fold this preflop. The dude's a tight raiser, we should be calling with a tighter range imo.

[Silly String]

I disagree kmind, if the guy is tighter we can call with a wider range preflop because we have greater implied odds and the ability to outplay him postflop due to the increased ability to read his hand.
mixchange, I didn't mean to give off the impression that my SCs are mainly for polarizing my 3bet range. I use them as such for loose raisers I have position on though.

[bjsaust]

Look into buying Small Stakes NLHE e-book. It has some really good stuff about hand ranges.

Silly String, the problem with flatting SCs IP v's a tight range, is that they rely on stealing for a fair amount of their value (i.e., semi-bluffing). Since a tight range is less likely to fold, the value we get from semi-bluffing goes down a lot, lowering their profitability overall.

[bspahn]

the $99 book?

http://smallstakesnolimitholdem.com/

[Marshall28]

thank god bjaust saved the thread by saying something that has merit.

[Marshall28]

Whoever told you to just use SC to "balance" your 3bet range doesn't know what they are talking about.

[bjsaust]

Yeah that book. Half a buyin for you and well worth it.

[bspahn]

marshall28, so you think in this spot its okay to flat pre because they have such a tight opening range - implied odds r goot !

I flat here to semi-bluff lots of flops

[Marshall28]

marshall28, so you think in this spot its okay to flat pre because they have such a tight opening range - implied odds r goot !

I said I agreed w/ bjaust that SC rely on the ability to steal on a lot of random board textures and when you're up against a stronger range, your ability to steal a lot of these pots goes down significantly.

You don't make strong enough hands often enough.

[IowaSkinsFan]

I disagree kmind, if the guy is tighter we can call with a wider range preflop because we have greater implied odds and the ability to outplay him postflop due to the increased ability to read his hand.

This cannot be farther from the truth. It's fine to call here or 3bet here preflop because our hand is very playable and we are in pos but we only want to call a wide range if he's opening a wide range. Look at the extreme of your statement: If opponent is only opening AA (the tightest range possible) from the CO, should we call a wide range. ZOMG implied odds!?!?!? doesnt matter so much.

[IowaSkinsFan]

I flat here to semi-bluff lots of flops

This isn't specific enough to be worth anything.

[bspahn]

ISF so if we have a VERY tight opener do we really just want to call suited broadways and pp's and 3bet some polarized stuff? what would you do against the tighest of players let's say 15/12 or less?

[Marshall28]

ISF so if we have a VERY tight opener do we really just want to call suited broadways and pp's and 3bet some polarized stuff? what would you do against the tighest of players let's say 15/12 or less?

I don't need to be ISF to answer that you should fold much much more often. Probably tossing most suited broadways when he opens UTG or UTG+1.

I would prefer to 3bet my SC against this type of player when he's opening from CO/BTN than to call since I think he will fold to my 3bets a lot and I want to be able to flop stronger hands/draws the times I do get called. Better to have 78s than Q5s against a player like this. Domination becomes much more of a concern when you're holding Q5, plus you can only make 1 card straights.

[bspahn]

so if a nit like 16/13 or something opens UTG or UTG+1 and you're on the BTN let's say (or CO and you dont think BTN squeezes much) then what would your preflop calling range look like?

all pairs up to and including JJ, and you 3bet QQ+ and dont 3bet stuff like sc's, and you don't flat hands like KQs or QJs ?

[Marshall28]

I thought you were trying to level me the first time I read your question LOL... Anyways .. 16/13? Likely he's opening about 9% UTG....

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 65.411% 63.63% 01.78% 444553364 12419372.00 { 88+, ATs+, KTs+, QJs, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 1: 34.589% 32.81% 01.78% 229227924 12419372.00 { QJs }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 58.770% 54.20% 04.57% 363787088 30692120.00 { 88+, ATs+, KTs+, QJs, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 1: 41.230% 36.66% 04.57% 246051840 30692120.00 { KQs }


Basically, when you flat these hands, what happens is the board comes Q84r, nit c-bets the majority of his range, and you call w/ your QJ or KQ. Then the turn blanks off and he continues betting w/ AA/KK/AQ/KQ, and he checks and gives up w/ everything worse. So he will put more money into the pot all the times he has you dominated, and he will give up all the times he missed.

Just fold everything but pairs, AK and AQ, you aren't giving up much letting him steal from UTG, he's only raising 9-10% of the time, let him have it.

[bspahn]

okay that makes sense. the ranges look fine.

I guess I'm thinking that a bad reg NIT at 1/2 will often never let go of big pairs and such so if we can get in cheap enough and also apply a lot of pressure with big draws etc then it makes more sense to flat some of these hands.

for example we call QJs and flop comes QJx and we stack his AA/KK every time. or flop comes KQx and we have KQ and he never folds his AK.

if we have this read then obv we can widen our calling range right?

[dsaxton]

I flat here to semi-bluff lots of flops

This thinking is really flawed. In order to semi-bluff, you first have to flop some kind of a draw, in which case your hand has a lot of equity. If you were flopping draws often enough to where it made sense to call just for the sake of "semi-bluffing", then your hand would have a lot of value anyways (which it doesn't), and you wouldn't be calling anymore to semi-bluff.

I think your willingness to call preflop depends on a lot of factors, and the strength of the guy's preflop raising range is only one of them. Much more important is how predictable / bad he is postflop.

To show the importance of how the guy plays, all you have to do is consider extreme cases. Consider one where a guy only raises with big pairs and A-K, but check-folds unless he has the nuts. (Highly unrealistic obviously.) Now you should call with everything with the intention of betting any flop when checked to, and the tightness of his range is mostly irrelevant. Now suppose he's a decent player postflop who will make good folds and extract value when he has the best hand. Even if has a similar raising range, then you should probably fold. It's easy to think of a lot of similar scenarios where the same hand can go from being a call to a fold or to a 3-bet depending on how the guy plays different hands.