1/2 - 4bet flatted, crappy flop

[zook]

Villain is a below average reg running 24/18/2.5, 3bets 6%, no history I'm aware of. I haven't seen him flat a 4bet before obv. I 4bet more than average, not sure if he's aware of that.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Button ($165.05)
Hero (SB) ($242.65)
BB ($220.45)
UTG ($271.45)
MP ($350.55)
CO ($225.25)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K, A
4 folds, Hero bets $7, BB raises to $21, Hero raises to $56, BB calls $35

Flop: ($112) A, Q, 4 (2 players)
Hero... ($164 eff. behind)

[meeloche]

I mean it's not the best flop ever but I'm still never folding. I'd b/c like 35 dollars or so. He's still gonna expect you to cbet this almost always and he can still go batshit with gutshots and fd's.

[pocketfours]

Why is this a tough spot?

[griffey24]

Yaah this isn't a bad flop at all. You'd be surprised what ppl show up with here, bvb, IP, and facing a very small 4bet. They are way more likely to just ship in AQ and QQ bvb, so they prob have some crappy sc's or suited nonsense.

I agree with meeloche, some $35 or something looks good.

[zook]

Why is this a tough spot?

cause ppl almost never flat 4bets in these games so I think I'm wa/wb

[Alexos]

Why is this a tough spot?

cause ppl almost never flat 4bets in these games so I think I'm wa/wb

yea but the pot is so big you don't really care about this. Seems like a good flop.

B/call 35-40 sounds good.

[zook]

kthx guys, running bad and questioning everything atm

[Marshall28]

Yaah this isn't a bad flop at all. You'd be surprised what ppl show up with here, bvb, IP, and facing a very small 4bet.

That wasn't anything even remotely close to a small 4bet. It was huge.

[Numbr2intheWorld]

you guys are saying bet 35-40? I'm betting like 62.

[Marshall28]

I'd bet about 25, but that's just me. 62 is too big, gives him no room to bluff and makes it very difficult to balance your range and get more credit the times you have a bluff.

[Renton]

medium size 4b imo

Yeah b/c pretty easily. I mean yeah, when the money goes in its not going to be pretty, but theres 112 dollars out there, the strategic portion of this hand has ended.

[JL]

When someone flats your 4-bet, how often are you guys seeing AA,KK,AK?

When a "below average reg running 24/18/2.5" flats a 4-bet, it is usually with a hand that they do not want to get all in with preflop but they don't want to fold either. I see these regs show up with hands like AQ and KQ a lot.
This is just with my experience.

[Alexos]

Some nit reg did it with QJs vs me OOP earlier today. Some other reg flats 4bets with KK/AA all day.

But yah usually its broadways that look pretty.

[Ravageur]

i don't get how this isn't a normal sized 4-bet....and the description 'huge' seems to be a stretch at the very least. So you're just clicking it back oop here? Don't you think that will make opponents bluff shove less (because there's less dead money) and just flat a lot more (which is worst case scenario isn't it?) I think zook's sizing still leaves room to maneuver and is fine.

[Renton]

ravageur, most regs on stars and full tilt 4bet like 21-42 when oop.

Yeah, its pretty stupid.

[Halv]

I thought 25% of stacks was the standard 4b amount?

[Alexos]

I thought 25% of stacks was the standard 4b amount?

..in 2007!

[jyms]

I cbet whatever my 4bet air would Cbet, although it's not often I see flops with air after 4betting

[AnTman_69]

how are we playing KK/JJ/TT in this spot?

[meeloche]

I'd probably c/f

[pocketfours]

how are we playing KK/JJ/TT in this spot?

That very much depends on your image and opponent. C/f is probably good against solid straightforward players.

[IowaSkinsFan]

This seems very tough, I don't really like any line that much.

[ATOTHEC101]

bet/call $44, I'd make it $52 pre.

[Numbr2intheWorld]

I'd probably c/f

you think he has exactly AQ a lot? Interesting... I'm not sure if i see that if im basing off stats alone.

[meeloche]

I would c/f with KK, JJ, or 1010 not AK. AQ is a much more likely holding for him to have when we don't have an ace in our hand. Plus there just isn't really any value to be had. I may try and get a bet out of qx with KK on later streets cause I don't expect qx to bet the flop.

[bspahn]

from my experience at 1/2 i would say when people flat 4bets, especially if they flat real fast is that it's HEAVILY weighted towards hands that are NOT AA/KK

i see people calling with sc, suited broadways, even some medium pairs like 99-JJ much much more often than with AA/KK

because of this i think i would generally not c/f a hand like KK here - but history with villain is important for that.

[Marshall28]

Any bigger than 46-48 is overkill on the 4bet w/ these stack sizes.

Don't know why most of you are fretting here. I'd just look for 2 streets of value, b/c/b or chk back/b/b.

I didn't examine this spot as closely the first time I looked at it when I said I'd bet 25, I don't like that flop sizing so much, especially if I'm looking for 2 streets I def would want to bet bigger.

Oh and btw, flat the 3b > 4betting.

[mixchange]

I've played about 40K hands of 1/2 so far this yr, I'd say in the games I play in its a large 4bet. Most regs here would do something between 48-52 here.

Anyway i'd bet something like $40 and call it off

i've seen maybe 4 4bet pots that got flatted pre that went to showdown this month, and the hands were 910s, Kjo, 99, 1010. The 99 and 1010 played passive and sought showdown. The 910/Kj were bluffs, the 910 hand hit tp and shoved and the KJ shoved an A turn vs. my AA when i checked. YMMV


I don't get why higher stakes players are flatting 4b's with AA/KK? Must be a crapload of 4bet bluffing going on for that to be a good idea I'd think.

[griffey24]

Oh and btw, flat the 3b > 4betting.

You want to expand on this?

This is hard to say without knowing dynamic. But in general, I'd say we are gonna own ourselves OOP by flatting AK, more than we own him.

People will also get it in here reasonably light pre (ie: 3bet AQ, and ship over a 4bet), so I don't really like flatting too much. Especially not OOP.

[bspahn]

i think he means that we keep in dominated hands that could 3bet such as AT-AQ and KQ/KJ - but dynamic is very important having some sort of reasonable read on the players tendencies

and very importantly if we flat the 3bet here oop we can't just c/f when we miss.

[Genitruc]

hahahaaaaaaaa i m overbet shoving all day