2 Lessons from my first Coaching Session (M2M)

[!Luck]

1) Having someone observe your play is immensely helpful as it allows you to spot small leaks that you don't know about.

EX. 1: I am fairly tight 13/10. But, I would call 55 and lower in the blinds to any raise that was 12x less than the villains stack. This is bad at full ring, because being out of position, it is unlikely that you will get 2 streets of value even when you hit. Further, I was calling the raisers in SB, which in theory allows the BB to make a squeeze play that I would have to fold to.

2) In 3-bet pot allow your villain to make a mistake.

Before coaching my normal line would be to bet the shit out of this flop. As there is ZOMG flush draw. But by doing this I don't allow KK-JJ to make a mistake which is likely in his range.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP3 ($26.35)
CO ($24.40)
Button ($25.05)
SB ($24.75)
BB ($25)
UTG ($25)
UTG+1 ($14.80)
MP1 ($25)
Hero (MP2) ($25)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K, A
3 folds, Hero bets $1, 2 folds, Button raises to $3.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $7.50, Button calls $4

Flop: ($15.35) 8, 7, A (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $4.75, Hero raises to $17.50 (All-In), Button calls $12.75

Turn: ($50.35) J (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($50.35) 5 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $50.35 | Rake: $2.45

[rong]

That's really simple and really obvious............. now that I've read it .

Good stuf, keep 'em coming. I'm jealous, coaching would awesome!

[eragotte]

i would say checking that flop is very villain dependent

[bikes]

i would say checking that flop is very villain dependent

+1

[rpm]

is 3betting OOP questionable against a range that likely never folds in that hand? i use to auto 3bet AK but nowadays i prefer keeping villains' AQ and AJ's in his range and not having to 3bet/fold when villain 4bets with KK+. thoughts anyone else?
ps sorry for mildly highjacking/detouring the thread

[rpm]

when i say "3betting" i obviously mean "4betting", but the question of 3betting AK at FR is still relevant i think.

[acoss3006]

is 3betting OOP questionable against a range that likely never folds in that hand? i use to auto 3bet AK but nowadays i prefer keeping villains' AQ and AJ's in his range and not having to 3bet/fold when villain 4bets with KK+. thoughts anyone else?

I think you have sort of answered your own question. If villian will only continue with better (KK+), your better off flatting to keep hands we beat in his range. If he will continue with enough worse hands, our 3bet is for value against that continuing range.

[celtic123]

2) In 3-bet pot allow your villain to make a mistake.

Before coaching my normal line would be to bet the shit out of this flop. As there is ZOMG flush draw. But by doing this I don't allow KK-JJ to make a mistake which is likely in his range.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP3 ($26.35)
CO ($24.40)
Button ($25.05)
SB ($24.75)
BB ($25)
UTG ($25)
UTG+1 ($14.80)
MP1 ($25)
Hero (MP2) ($25)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K, A
3 folds, Hero bets $1, 2 folds, Button raises to $3.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $7.50, Button calls $4

Flop: ($15.35) 8, 7, A (2 players)
Hero checks

Hi , Just to clarify , for my simple mind. Are you saying after your coaching, you checked here to induce a mistake from villian , because KK-JJ are more likely in his range than Drawing hands ?

Now that ive typed this, I think its what you actually said.

[!Luck]

Celtics,

Right now this is not a standard move, since some opponets may have a bunch of flush draws, but in this case it was fairly likely that he didn't have too many draws. So i make, hopefully, a small mistake of allow a free card to mess his head up and force him into betting.

-!luck

[celtic123]

Yes, thanks for clarity.

I really like the way you call it a small mistake. Stops me taking the idea and running with it. Nice post.

[AdamThePirate]

I'm more interested pre-flop in this hand, than post-flop.

Can you explain why you 4bet here?

[Carroters]

I think it's far more likely that JJ-KK will call a bet on the flop rather than turn themselves into a bluff by spazzing at it. This obv very villain dependant though. I think betting small allows him to make as much of a mistake if not more of one than checking does.

But saying that, we have 3 streets to get it in here with a low SPR, so I don't mind this line given his range probably has very few draws. My main reasoning though would be that it would make villain more likely to call 2 streets (or a ps shove depending on what he will view as weaker.) not that it will induce a spazz from JJ-KK.

[!Luck]

AdamThePirate,

He on the button his range could be mega wide to the point that AK, can be ahead of his 3-betting range, since his 3-betting range could contain jj-kk, AK, AQs (doubtful), and some weird crap like 67s, I want to take advantage of raising when I have the best hand. Once the flop comes I made the decision that if I hit Top pair I will stack off. I think giving his range, that if I missed the flop I have to c/f.

So benefits of 4-Betting in order, my hand is ahead of his 3-betting range, I might be ahead of his 4-bet calling range (reason I still do this because much of the time he will fold or shove, which makes my decision easy), lastly and this is important to note that this is BY PRODUCT of my decision to 4-Bet not the reason. I get info ZOMG.

!luck

[spoonitnow]

I think it's far more likely that JJ-KK will call a bet on the flop rather than turn themselves into a bluff by spazzing at it.

Can we quit automatically saying someone is "turning their hand into a bluff" when they bet without top pair or better? If he bets KK, it's not trying to get Ax to fold, so he's not bluffing.

[nickatina-69]

can you post result? i think he had AK,88,77,AA, maybe AQclubs,
anyway i dont think he calls your checkraise with worse here unless he is a large donk,or flush drawing, maybe i am wrong about this, playing 2$NL right now.

[Carroters]

I think it's far more likely that JJ-KK will call a bet on the flop rather than turn themselves into a bluff by spazzing at it.

Can we quit automatically saying someone is "turning their hand into a bluff" when they bet without top pair or better? If he bets KK, it's not trying to get Ax to fold, so he's not bluffing.

Yah, stupid habit. Anyway, I don't think there are many villains here that have a wider betting range than they do a calling range on this flop or even close to it at these stakes. Some reads would be nice though.

[rpm]

on the button his range could be mega wide to the point that AK, can be ahead of his 3-betting range, since his 3-betting range could contain jj-kk, AK, AQs (doubtful), and some weird crap like 67s......
So benefits of 4-Betting in order, my hand is ahead of his 3-betting range, I might be ahead of his 4-bet calling range (reason I still do this because much of the time he will fold or shove, which makes my decision easy),
!luck

your AK is quite possibly ahead of villains 3bet range, if he has equal nut:"bluff" 3betting ratio
vs: nut hands (top 2.6% QQ+,AK) you have 38%

vs bluffs (who knows, what this range is, or if he has one, we'll just say A2s-A9s which is also 2.7%,) you have 69%

against the range as a whole you are only 56-44 favourite (the less bluff in the range, the worse the 4b becomes), but when you 4bet you allow him to shove the part of his range which has you owned (scooping your 4bet wasted on AK, or getting it in 3:1 favourite) and fold the rest. i may be wrong, you are a better player than i am, but against most 100bb stacked FR villian's 3betting range i don't see much value in 4betting AK. the only flops we can really hit either
A- hit villain harder giving us RIO or,
B- scare his QQ,JJ out of calling more than one street (if that)

these are mere opinions which i dont, by any means, consider to be necessarily correct so please refute/discuss at will

[!Luck]

I am going to hold off posting the results for a while since they are going to distract from what looks like a decent debate.

RPM,
I think there is some value to making the Button less likely to 3-bet since if just call you are out of position and most players will out play me here. But also some villains have a pretty wide 3 bet range on the button especially if they see that I fold to 3-bets 70%+, I don't want poeple to 3-bet my AQ raises knowing that if I 4-bet them I have kk+. But i suspect thats not important at the stakes I play.

Lastly, if our villain has a bunch of 67,78,98 suited cards it is true that they have equity but most poeple would fold that to 4-bet and only continue with jj-qq.

Lot's of speculation.

!luck

[dranger7070]

Rpm, think of it this way. In your example, if he has an equal "nut:bluff" ratio, then our 4bet makes him fold out all his bluffs. (Theoretically) In that scenario, he's folding 50% of the time to our 4bet, and the range that continues we have 40% against.

Do you not see how this is MASSIVELY +EV? With the blinds, our initial raise, and his 3bet there is so much dead money in the pot, the fact that he would be folding 50% of his 3betting range makes us a butt ton of money when we decide to 4bet. And when we do 4bet/get the stacks in, we're winning another 40% of the time!

MATHS!

Pot size after he 3bets: $4.85

If he folds 50% of his 3betting range, we're gaining $2.43

Times that we get the stacks in (assume that every time we 4bet, he 5bet jams with QQ+, AK) we're a 40% dog: pot would be $50. We win .4*50 = $20.
And we lose $25 60%: 25*.6 = $15

$20 (we win) - $15 (we lose) = $5 + $2.43 = $7.43 in EV for every time we 4bet in this spot with AK.

Now obviously, it's highly unlikely he is going to be folding 50% of his 3betting range, and he won't always stack QQ+, AK PF but it's a good enough example to go off of.

If this sounds retarded, or if I did something wrong call me out on it, cuz I'm tired as shit and just kinda threw this together.

[Muzzard]

*Grunch*

I would 3b to $8.50, I think $7.50 may be a little on the small side.

I would also bet this flop a decent % but bet smallish, say $8 and shove turn. If I was not betting this flop I would not c/r as it'll fold out too many hands that we beat and we shouldn't be scared of any draws in a 4b pot. Whether or not I would c/c donk turn or c/c c/rai turn depends on player type.

[Jason]

My guess is that you either split this pot or beat a less than quality opponent who was holding something like AQ, AJ, or AT (you actually lose to AJ in this hand, but win Sklansky bucks ). Less likely, but also possible is someone who had a flush and/or OSD draw or a less than quality opponent who had A7 or A8. The last small bucket is the pocket 8's or 7's that got lucky or the stubborn, fishy 99 through KK that just can't let a 3 bet pot go even with an ace staring @ them. Anyone who stacks off 99-KK with an ace on the flop usually goes str8 to my fish list and gets the opportunity to play lots of hands with me in the future

As for how the hand played out, I'm not sure I'm a big fan of building a big pot with AKo in general unless I feel there is a reasonable chance I can take it away after the flop without hitting a piece of it. Plus, we're out of position. But, on the flop, I do like the check. I'm debating on whether I like the re-raise all-in. Any hand that you beat seems hard pressed to call off the rest. I might be tempted to let him take another crack at it on his own. But, that's probably not a big mistake either way since you're out of position and it's very read dependent and he has invested 1/2 his stack already and your re-raise could be interpreted more bluffy or weak than if you just flat call.

[Micro2Macro]

I like the 4bet size.

As for the flop I think betting out like 1/3-2/5 pot and calling off a shove if jammed on is probably a bit better than going for a c/r though it really is just villain dependent. I think this guy was playing a bit loose and crazy at the time so either line would probably induce some sort of spazz out if he decided to flat our 4bet with the air part of his 3bet range (i.e. assuming his range is polarized or just has lots of weak holdings)

[rpm]

good point dranger. my line of thought appears flawed. so when working out the value of a 4b the equation is:

% of range villain folds * what we gain when they fold (current pot)
% of range villain shoves * our equity vs shove range * total pot
" " " " " * their equity when they shove * how much we risk by getting all in?

is that remotely correct? i've been reading spoon's "happy fun squeeze time" thread which provides an algebraic formula but i'm terrible at maths.

[daviddem]

I like the 4bet size.

As for the flop I think betting out like 1/3-2/5 pot and calling off a shove if jammed on is probably a bit better than going for a c/r though it really is just villain dependent. I think this guy was playing a bit loose and crazy at the time so either line would probably induce some sort of spazz out if he decided to flat our 4bet with the air part of his 3bet range (i.e. assuming his range is polarized or just has lots of weak holdings)

M2M and !Luck, can you please explain the 4bet sizing? We are offering him 26% pot odds, which is pretty low, right? Say he has about 30% equity with the bluff part of his 3bet range, he can still call profitably. Say he puts us on QQ+,AK after the 4bet, he can still just call with suited connectors and Axs.

[cleanup.that]

At 25 nl I really dont think its necessary to 4bet AK. Not that you should never do it but in small stakes games youre usually smoked if someone calls your 4bet. You see people or vids of people at higher stakes going nuts with AK pre but its for a reason. In those games so many more people are 3 betting light and 4 bet bluffing that it makes sense to adjust your range a bit and push AK pre in certain spots.

At 25 nl sure you have a few people that are capable of squeezing and 3 betting light, but you hardly have any players 4 bet bluffing or calling 4 bets light. Now you didnt say if you had any reads on the villain or not but against a random with no reads Id say our AK has more value when we flat that 3 bet.

[dranger7070]

4betting/stacking off with AK PF is pretty standard at all limits vs the right villains. Vs. an unknown I don't feel to bad about it. Like its been said MULTIPLE TIMES above, if villain is stacking QQ+, AK only PF (very possible) then its +EV given all the dead money after 3bet/4bet/etc.

[Micro2Macro]

I like the 4bet size.

As for the flop I think betting out like 1/3-2/5 pot and calling off a shove if jammed on is probably a bit better than going for a c/r though it really is just villain dependent. I think this guy was playing a bit loose and crazy at the time so either line would probably induce some sort of spazz out if he decided to flat our 4bet with the air part of his 3bet range (i.e. assuming his range is polarized or just has lots of weak holdings)

M2M and !Luck, can you please explain the 4bet sizing? We are offering him 26% pot odds, which is pretty low, right? Say he has about 30% equity with the bluff part of his 3bet range, he can still call profitably. Say he puts us on QQ+,AK after the 4bet, he can still just call with suited connectors and Axs.

let me quickly rebuke this argument
SPOONITNOWWWW 5:00 am
kkk
SPOONITNOWWWW 5:00 am
100nl, $100 stacks
UTG opens to $99 with any two cards
we have AA in the BB
we shouldn't shove b/c he has odds to call
qed

[Jason]

At 25 nl I really dont think its necessary to 4bet AK.

At 25 nl sure you have a few people that are capable of squeezing and 3 betting light, but you hardly have any players 4 bet bluffing or calling 4 bets light.

I agree with this line of thought. I've been vocal in the past about not getting fancy with even 3 bets, let alone 4 bets @ $25NL and lower. There are just so many other skills and fundamentals that can be used and polished that getting carried away pre-flop can be very FPS.

[Miffed22001]

hand is incredibly standard but a good example of how to win the battle of mistakes sklansky referred to years ago.

i think the only thing i find odd is the 4bet size - its practically a CIB size - id prefer $8.50 which leaves a pot bet behind on the flop or half pot/1/4 pot which doesnt allow a pair to get away eg QQ on rags or AK on Kxx or Ak on Axx etc etc
Also, when our opponent might 3bet light but not 4bet bluff much (i know not always applicable to 25nl fr) but certainly as you move up it allow AK to be played aggressively but never with full commitment