50nl-Playing back sans 4b'ing

[surviva316]

villain seems like a rare tagg at these games. 19/16 over 300 hands with a 9% 3b (19% in SB and 12% in BB, while only 5% OTB, so he's obviously fond of resteals). he'd been especially picking on me. i hadn't played many pots with him postflop, but his numbers indicated that he cbet an unsustainable amount (88%, pretty high given his loose-ish preflop numbers) and slowed down on the turn. i know, lol sample size for numbers like cbet turn, but i thought he had some exploitable habits.

fwiw, my general plan for a players restealing this wide is to ATS less (meaning i'm leaving the table ASAP, 'cause what's the fun of playing nit ring if you can't ATS 60%?), obv. 4b bluff here and there, and floating 3b's and playing back at cbets with some hands with potential given i don't think players at these games are used to running multi-street bluffs in 3b pots. i can flat with a hand like this that has potential and save 4b's for hands like K2o.

my flop call is obviously with the intention of floating a lot of turns, since i don't think he's barreling this board that much, especially given the numbers i had on him and his flop sizing.

thoughts on hand and general thought process?

and if this is good/standard, what's our play if it's a club turn and he bets?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP1 ($21.50)
MP2 ($51.55)
CO ($46.50)
Hero (Button) ($52.65)
SB ($53.45)
BB ($50)
UTG ($52.25)

Preflop: Hero is Button with ,
4 folds, Hero bets $1.50, SB raises to $6.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $5

Flop: ($13.50) , , (2 players)
SB bets $9, Hero calls $9

[Icanhastreebet]

shove pre is an awesome way to combat someone 3betting 20% out of the small blind. On this flop though just jam over his bet. Also you should have said something about his c-betting in 3b pots. If he's 3betting 20% and c-betting like 80% or something retarded just flat shit like this and jam most flops unless you actually flop the nuts lolbalance.

[Micro2Macro]

lolbalance.

+1

[sk8r_daniel]

I would shove a club on the turn if there is still fold equity. He likely folds alot of small pairs or better Ace High.

I`m not sure if I like the float with the A3 high here. I often find I have to just give up on the turn unless I hit. There are just so many Ax hands in his 3betting range that beat you. You could try to call down ace high and still be the loser.

So for that reason, and to send a message... Don`t Mess With my Blind STEALs I got to say I like the jam.

[Jason]

shove pre is an awesome way to combat someone 3betting 20% out of the small blind.

I made a reference to this in another thread, but I tend to agree that shoving is the best play PRE-FLOP. You do that just once or twice and he's going to think twice about picking on you or leak some serious money by stubbornly sticking with it. I don't see the value of trying to play post flop in these situations. He 3bets to 13% of a 100bb effective stack with a weak range. Why try to give him an opportunity to bluff us off the flop or catch up? If you're not comfortable doing that, I think folding to his raise or not even raising in the first place is your best play.

Generally speaking, the only reason to effectively 3bet more than 10% or so of your stack in my opinion is when you have a premium hand and will get called or have a crappy hand and WON'T get called and if it won't get called for 10%, ask yourself if it will be called for less because when we're trying to get someone to fold, you want to do it for the minimum that will get the job done.

But this is another reason bankroll management is important because these plays will be massively +EV but also higher variance. Sometimes he may show up with a premium hand or call you and catch up.

[Kbryce23]

shove pre is an awesome way to combat someone 3betting 20% out of the small blind. On this flop though just jam over his bet. Also you should have said something about his c-betting in 3b pots. If he's 3betting 20% and c-betting like 80% or something retarded just flat shit like this and jam most flops unless you actually flop the nuts lolbalance.

Why 4bet shove pre? I would just raise to like 17. I would rather flat with hands like QK because I feel like it has more potential preflop, and when you do jam this flop atleast you might have two overs.

[Icanhastreebet]

raise to 17 and ... ? I wanna hear more cause sticking in 34bb 106bb deep w/ Axs and folding to a shove is umm what word am I looking for.... oh that's it, retarded.

[Kbryce23]

17 is probably too much, but ya I would 4bet/fold this hand rather than 4bet shove. What are you hoping for when you raise 8x his 3bet with A3s... ? Is he really folding that much more often to a shove? If you 4bet to 16 and he shoves you can fold because you will be a 2.3:1 dog and will only be getting 1.86:1 odds. I think he is calling a 4bet shove with about the same range as hes 5betting. Im just getting my feet wet with the math part of the game so Im not even going to get into how often he needs to fold to make a 4bet bluff to 16 profitable or a 4bet shove profitable. Im a nit trying to become a decent player, and I know I need to learn more about 3/4bet bluffing for that to happen which is why Im posting in this thread. I would just leave this table if this guy was to my left, and I would probably always fold in this spot.

[sk8r_daniel]

If you just shove pre, he'll be like ZOMG he has AA or KK I better fold! Even if he does call with QQ or KK we aren't in terrible shape and its really unlikely he shows up with a monster anyways. Worst case scenario is he calls with AK...but then I'm not sure if he would.

Just as a cautionary note: I wouldn't get too caught up doing this everytime vs. these %20 3betters, its more to send a message than anything and to set up hands in the future when you actually have a monster.

[Icanhastreebet]

think he is calling a 4bet shove with about the same range as hes 5betting.
If this were true then yeah ur right but he's going to 5b shove bluff on us some non zero % of the time and thus 4bing becomes -eV very quickly v someone this crazy. He's going to shove hands on us that fold when we 4b shove which could consist of AQ/AJ/Axs/small PPs/SCs (obv not all of these definately some of these will jam over our 4b but fold to a 4b shove) The difference between 4bing normal and 4b shoving is that when we 4b normal/fold we actually open up ourselves to get owned especially v a guy who might shove 40% of his 3bing range. If we 5b shove though he probably folds 75-85% of his 3bing range.

[sk8r_daniel]

Ican... I'm having trouble deciphering your message, what are you saying we should do?

[speedcake]

it seems pretty clear to me what he is saying.

[sk8r_daniel]

think he is calling a 4bet shove with about the same range as hes 5betting.

Is this a statement or a question?