Triple barreling 3betpot BvB $200nl

[JL]

Villain seems like a reg, but I don't have many hands on him.

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
5 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($164.65)
CO ($207.70)
BTN ($212)
SB ($306.60)
Hero (BB) ($200)

Pre-Flop: ($3, 5 players) Hero is BB
3 folds, SB raises to $8, Hero raises to $22, SB calls $14

Flop: ($44, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $20, SB calls $20

Turn: ($84, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $45, SB calls $45

River: ($174, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $113

[griffey24]

This is pretty tough to say without reads. With the way I play, I'd rather just go 40 flop, shove turn. As played, I'd rather make it a bit smaller on turn and have the shove on river be somewhat more relative to the pot size.

[Hoopy]

Don't mind it. Need him to fold ~40% of his range and given his line I think his range should be weak enough in this spot that we get enough folds from hands like Tx/99.

40/shove seems ok as well.

[Vi-Zer0Skill]

there are probably only nine nut hands in his range -- 3 each of 88/TT/JJ. so that's a plus

he'll probably fold 99 but is less likely to fold AT since it was TPTK and he may convince himself you could play QT/KT this way

however there are at least as many draws you could have had that weren't Jx, you're BvB, and once SB calls the turn I don't expect him to fold the river unless an Ace comes.

griff are you thinking a smaller turn bet will also get SB to bring a wider range to the river or is it mostly about having more FE on the river bet?

[griffey24]

Vi - Yah I'd imagine a smaller turn bet might make his river range somewhat wider, and leaving more behind might give us more room to get a fold.

Given pot odds, I feel like a lot of hands are stubborn calling on the river now.

[sauce123]

shove river always if you decide to bet
c/c turn is standard

[JL]

shove river always if you decide to bet
c/c turn is standard

I am in position so just check back turn then?

[Renton]

Its out of balance but with this specific hand i think you kind of want to put more money in while cards are to come. I think griffey's suggestion of 40/shove turn is waywayway overkill for this though (you bet 40 with your whole range into a 44 dollars pot on the flop?). I would probably bet like 22-24 on the flop and like 56 ott. At 1/2 anyways. I think at higher stakes I would take a more consistent betting line and do what you normally do.

On the river you might as well go for it for the odds and its a reasonable bluffing card. I can't fault checking river too much though when the current six max game paradigm is to never fold in a big pot if you have a pair (omg redline).

[griffey24]

Its out of balance but with this specific hand i think you kind of want to put more money in while cards are to come. I think griffey's suggestion of 40/shove turn is waywayway overkill for this though (you bet 40 with your whole range into a 44 dollars pot on the flop?). I would probably bet like 22-24 on the flop and like 56 ott. At 1/2 anyways. I think at higher stakes I would take a more consistent betting line and do what you normally do.

On the river you might as well go for it for the odds and its a reasonable bluffing card. I can't fault checking river too much though when the current six max game paradigm is to never fold in a big pot if you have a pair (omg redline).

Legitimate question, but I'm wondering why everyone is always trying to balance with their triple barreling range, as if this is the only balance question.

Why is it not credible to balance with our bet flop/shoving turn range?

It's not like its difficult to bet flop, shove turn with KT+, overpairs here.

[JL]

Legitimate question, but I'm wondering why everyone is always trying to balance with their triple barreling range, as if this is the only balance question.

Why is it not credible to balance with our bet flop/shoving turn range?

It's not like its difficult to bet flop, shove turn with KT+, overpairs here.

But what do we do with our 98o, K2s, A5o hands?

[JL]

. I would probably bet like 22-24 on the flop and like 56 ott. At 1/2 anyways.

Then we have $100ish left into a $200ish pot on the river, so are we just shutting down more often then?

[Renton]

Legitimate question, but I'm wondering why everyone is always trying to balance with their triple barreling range, as if this is the only balance question.

Why is it not credible to balance with our bet flop/shoving turn range?

It's not like its difficult to bet flop, shove turn with KT+, overpairs here.

betting 40 is gross because its horrible bluff odds. You make a lot of money in reraised pots from betting small on the flop and taking it down a lot, relying on the strength of your range to force people to fold despite the odds. Betting 40 as a standard would dramatically curtail the profitability of your bluffing range, and thus curtail the profitability of your overall range, with the only benefit being that you might get more value from your big hands some % of the time (but note you often stack them with big hands no matter what sizing you choose).

[Renton]

Then we have $100ish left into a $200ish pot on the river, so are we just shutting down more often then?

probably, but the odds might compel you to go for it anyways. I think in 4x open 3-bet pots you should probably not have 3 street strategies. You end up having to bet too small on flop and turn and it becomes not worth it for what you give up.

[Numbr2intheWorld]

Good but I agree with cc turn

[JL]

Good but I agree with cc turn

We are in position so we can't c/c.

However, I would like to talk about this some more. Assuming we are OOP, check-calling the turn is something that I wouldn't normally consider in this spot. I assume that if we have something like 75dd, we are betting the turn again because we have no SDV.
What is our plan on the river after chk-calling?

[griffey24]

betting 40 is gross because its horrible bluff odds. You make a lot of money in reraised pots from betting small on the flop and taking it down a lot, relying on the strength of your range to force people to fold despite the odds. Betting 40 as a standard would dramatically curtail the profitability of your bluffing range, and thus curtail the profitability of your overall range, with the only benefit being that you might get more value from your big hands some % of the time (but note you often stack them with big hands no matter what sizing you choose).

I don't think the benefit of betting small is necessarily to improve our bluff odds. I'd argue that betting small if anything a) encourages more floats and peels OOP,such that we are forced to double barrel bluff (ie: needing to risk more to take down the pot), and b) encourages more bluff c/r on the flop.

Obviously when we have a hand, this is one of the big advantages of betting small. but when we don't have a hand, I wouldn't necessarily say its helping our odds of taking down the pot.

I'm just playing devil's advocate. Ofcourse I think tripling small is good most of the time. I'm just saying that people hate the double barrel line (bet/shove) so much.. balance yada yada.. and there are ways to incorporate both types of lines in a balanced way by taking advantage of the dynamic of value shoving or bluff shoving and getting called, creates.

[pocketfours]

LOL at c/c turn guys.

I'd bet the turn almost always but not the river without reads.

[shakesss]

When i first saw the hand and the flop I thought that a full pot or somewhat close to it and shove turn would be a good line to take in this spot. BVB its so common to get called down light so to make them adjust we could increase our FE by making it harder for them to call down with a weaker range on a board that misses our perceived range so often. Esp in this spot where our hand has so much equity even if we were to get called it couldnt be that bad considering the increased FE and pot equity when called.

[Alexos]

c/c turn imo

[Ravageur]

wow that's from freaky twin action there...i think we got levelled.


But I would definitely make it somewhere between 20 and 40 on flop, 28-31 seems good and then 60ish on turn. I think that will dramatically change the dynamic of the hand (i.e. he's shoving or folding turn a lot more than how you played it) and then I'd probably shove river expecting a lot of folds.

[Numbr2intheWorld]

We are in position so we can't c/c.

The best players are capable of c/cing here

[sauce123]

b/c turn, usually jam river

[shakesss]

b/c turn, usually jam river

sick line.. this is why u win all the monies..

[Renton]

sick line.. this is why u win all the monies..

quite standard actually

[shakesss]

quite standard actually

my mistake.. for some odd reason i thought we x/c flop and then b/c turn , jam river.. which seemed like a sick way to play it..

btw.. is b/c'ing the turn and b/shiiping the same roughly the same given the SPR and it being a 3b pot. Even if villain only clicks it back theyre will be like 80 or so behind with 200+ in the pot so folding will be kinda weird. Does taking this sorta stop and go type of line give us enough added implied FE to not mindlessly just get it in if we bet and get raised here?

[ilikeaces86]

Sauce if you bet call IP why c/c oop rather than b/c.