First Thread, New Poster, Questions

[MadMojoMonkey]

Hi, I'm new here. At least, I'm new to posting here, I've been lurking in the shadows for a few months, secretly sharing your torments and laughs... and learning about poker in ways I never imagined. TY all so much already.

I've been playing in friendly home game SNG's and also play-money 100/200 FR on Pokerstars for years. Did I mention I'm in the US and practically just found out that online poker isn't completely illegal? Lots of gray area, I need a real perspective on this issue.

Recently, I've come to terms with a relentless winning rate in both live (cash) and online (play chips) and a series of job applications that do not lead to interviews. I am thinking of getting into the poker world. I have looked into the scene and it looks like, as of 2012, there are 3 choices of online play available to Missouri players... and the MO law is pretty intimidating, albeit overlooked so far. The 3 choices are Bovada, Cake Network and America's Card Room, as far as I can tell... Is anyone here using any of these sites and can you offer any reviews? Particularly in regards to cash outs? Are there other sites that are better / worth mention? I've read the threads for each site, but they range over a period of years; it's hard to tell what's current.

Is there anyone playing online poker in the St Louis area (specifically MO players) who can talk straight with me about my options?

Moving on...

I managed to scrape together $300 and made a night of it at Lumiere (the local casino) a couple of Fridays ago. I played very well, but, after a couple of hours, I got busted when I 3-bet pre w/ KK and got 4-bet all-in against AA which held up. All in all, I consider the evening a win, in that I played well, folded when I needed to, picked up a few pots, and, ultimately, didn't make a huge mistake when I got busted out.

I truly understood the word "sick" (as pertains to poker) as I made my way home that night. By the time I got home, though, I had it all in perspective. After all, I KNEW I was going to lose that buy-in (1st time in a casino EVER) and I played my hands well, even beautifully (lucky on 2 of 'em, though). I know as a player that I can learn and adapt.

My thoughts now are: There is clearly a learning curve from beating your friends on a Saturday night and pwning the play chip donks to holding your own at a casino table... How can I make an intelligent approach to this? It seems that starting online at 0.01/0.02 tables is the least risk way to start... then build up in the stakes as judicious BR management allows (amazing posts in the "How high can you get" thread, btw). Ultimately, cash out and take it to the casino tables. All that is for nothing, though, if I can't actually cash out when I manage to build up a few $$$$.

Anyone playing online here in Missouri? Can you offer any advice to a beginner as far as site selection, affiliate choice, payment methods, rakeback/bonuses, etc.

I'm all ears.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Should I even be thinking or worrying about cashing out yet? Any reasonable strategy to build BR might not include taking out payments for myself for at least a few months. Wouldn't 100% re-investment make the most sense?

Assume I'm willing to move to another state before I cash out my first account, would that make my choice to take the shot (at online poker) more reasonable? Or am I grasping for any excuse to play?

[BorisTheSpider]

Hi, welcome to the forums.

I have no useful input to offer you about where to play, although I have heard that Cake is pretty good. I was away from poker when the UIGEA stuff happened, so I don't really know most of the details, and since I'm from the UK it hasn't affected me other than to make the games decidedly less fishy than a few years ago when I remember party poker being very very soft. I was beating 100NL then, and I am only just beating 25NL now, albeit after a long break. That may also be just a general effect of online poker getting more serious and credible, rather than specifically the loss of a big part of the clientelle.

Whatever you do, start out with a plan. Have a proper bankroll management system, be very conservative about bankroll, stop losses and tilt control. Have a learning and development plan, play a lot and review a lot in Holdem Manager or PokerTracker. Be systematic, and start from the very beginning in a thorough, business like way even if it's at 2NL.

[Stacks]

Is Merge not an option for Missouri players?

I've heard some not so great things with regards to Cake. Primarily pertaining to how difficult it can be to get money off the site, which you rightfully so seem rather concerned about. However, there are options to sell to reputable players for a vig.

Out of the 3 you listed, I've heard the best things about America's Cardroom, but only from a single source, and seeing as I wasn't looking to change sites, I didn't ask any in depth questions.

Another option might be to look at Intertops? I'm not certain, but I believe it's a Cake skin, but that it uses it's own processors (not very sure on this so check it out yourself). But I've heard it's a solid choice for players that can't head to Merge.

Nothing wrong with wondering about cashouts. Investing money without knowing how, or if it's possible, to retrieve it at a later date would be foolish. But keep in mind there is a learning curve, and it's entirely possible you might lose whatever you deposit. It's not likely if you put in ample study time, and follow solid bankroll management. But that's something the average player doesn't do.

As far as approaching learning poker, just be prepared to spend a lot of time away from the table learning. Playing hands and getting experience is certainly valuable, but learning solid fundamentals away from the table, reviewing your play, discussing concepts with better players, etc is just as important. And it's not costing you any money to do it. The more you learn away from the tables, the less you risk when playing, and the more you win when you do play (or less you lose).

You sound like you shouldn't have any problems, as you are asking very solid questions, and seem rather knowledgeable.

[MadMojoMonkey]

I heard 1 person say that Merge is not an option, but I'll look into it today and find out for sure. I'll check out intertops, too.

I don't expect to be able to turn a working (as in a career) profit in the first year, but I am fully capable of it, long term. My BR management is guided by the advice of Chris Ferguson and the threads both here and on 2p2.

What is the ACTUAL legal risk in playing online in Missouri? IF it's only really associated with cashing out, then I am apt to just play 2NL and worry about cashing out when there's something to worry about. Maybe I can abandon the account (waste of money, but not time) or move to Nevada and create a new account and transfer the funds to myself.

{ At what point did } / { What factors made } you realize that you were truly profitable and commit to poker full time?

[Icanhastreebet]

If you are not making 50$/hr(depends where you live) + have 6months living expenses banked you won't make it.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Well, right now I'm making $0/hr, am supported by my dad and gf, and have my student loans coming up to being due. I'm applying for 5 jobs a week minimal (at least one each weekday) and I'm getting zero interviews.

In the mean time, I'm playing a TON of online poker for play chips and killing at a rate of 150bb/100 over 50k+ hands. It's absurd, I know... I had to quadruple check that I was calculating that right, since pokertracker doesn't work on play chip tables. I do it all by hand; I go over every hand I play and record my actions and think about what the heck happened. I have a huge spreadsheet that I use to track every pocket I get and how I played it. (Obv too much time on my hands)

Isn't it worth it to just make an initial deposit and play it? Don't those numbers and dedication on my part indicate that I've got at least a snowball's chance in hell?

[Stacks]

Well, right now I'm making $0/hr, am supported by my dad and gf, and have my student loans coming up to being due. I'm applying for 5 jobs a week minimal (at least one each weekday) and I'm getting zero interviews.

In the mean time, I'm playing a TON of online poker for play chips and killing at a rate of 150bb/100 over 50k+ hands. It's absurd, I know... I had to quadruple check that I was calculating that right, since pokertracker doesn't work on play chip tables. I do it all by hand; I go over every hand I play and record my actions and think about what the heck happened. I have a huge spreadsheet that I use to track every pocket I get and how I played it. (Obv too much time on my hands)

Isn't it worth it to just make an initial deposit and play it? Don't those numbers and dedication on my part indicate that I've got at least a snowball's chance in hell?

I don't see why you wouldn't make a small deposit, and at least begin having some sort of hourly rate. Especially when you can do so with such a small $50 risk or so.

However to just be clear, 150bb/100 is more than just absurd. Obviously it's play chips, so probably not that hard to achieve given the play there. But just for reference sake expect 4-6bb/100 at small stakes as a pretty good winrate. I'm not sure what is attainable at microstakes nowadays (2nl-25nl), but probably a little more.

One thing though, I wouldn't advise depositing looking to quickly make money. Any money you do earn should be as a result of your dedication to playing and improving. You will very likely have a lot of leaks in your game coming from play chip games, so your first step should be correcting those.

[MadMojoMonkey]

So it looks like the Merge network (along with Intertops which is a Merge skin) is still around in the US, but there was some kerfuffle with the Dept of Justice late last year. Apparently the story was that the DOJ was preparing to make a move on the Merge network, which could happen in the coming weeks... now months... Merge has apparently moved it's domains outside the US, but I still think it's a bit presumptuous to trust the DOJ to keep it's distance.

So down to Bovada, Cake and ACR.

I looked into the PT3 software and any HUD software, but I don't see anything that is reliable and easy to use for free, which is clearly my price range at the moment. Have I missed something?

Given the lack of a HUD, and the apparently obvious assumption that my villains will be using one, it seems like Bovada is the site of choice. The completely anonymous tables mean my opponents can't use a HUD (except for the hands they play at that table at that time, I assume). That at least means I'm not at a disadvantage there. I wont be able to take notes, but neither will they, so...

Speculative plan:
1) Make a minimum deposit on Bovada
2) Play Micro-Stakes and don't take any shots at anything but the lowest blinds
3) Be mindful of my many leaks, and humble enough to find new ones
4) Play, review, post, study, watch, repeat

Any thoughts here? What was your initial approach before your first deposit?

[MadMojoMonkey]

(along with Intertops which is a Merge skin)

Oops, Intertops is a Cake network skin, and it looks pretty good as a first choice. The 33% rakeback for FTR members seems to be about the top end of industry standard. Americas Card Room only seems to offer 27%. I don't know about Bovada, yet.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Add another consideration: lowest micro-stakes NLHE blinds offered on each site
Intertops: 0.02/0.04 33% rakeback
Bovada: 0.02/0.05 rakeback recently discontinued, bonus system now
ACR: 0.05/0.10 27% rakeback

It looks like Intertops is going to be an easy choice. All 3 sites are comparable on traffic, from what I can tell.

I probably take better notes than most, so having them is better than denying them (anonymous Bovada style). I decided that the HUD (or lack thereof) is probably not too much of an issue at micro stakes. (What do you think?)

On a scale of 1 - 5, how high of a priority should I make getting PT3?
5) It's absolutely essential and I should get it before my first hand
3) It's highly essential and I should make it a point to get it within the first couple of weeks/month
1) It's nice, but overrated at micro-stakes and I can justifiably put it off until my bankroll can afford to buy it

[Shizu]

PT3 has a 60-days free trial, so get it immediately imo.

PT3 allows you to find leaks while they are still 'fresh' and not consolidated into bad habits.
Also, no matter how good you are at taking notes. You can't possibly note what every player does in every hand, so you'd probably label a 35 VPIP and a 50 VPIP under the same category.

Get it now imo. When the trial is over, you can get the micro-version and eventually upgrade it to the full version in the future.

[Keith]

^ pretty terrible advice IMO.

HEM2 has been launched and you can do a free trial with it . if you email support they were extending the free trial eriod whilst bugs are being sorted.

PT4 is now also in open beta. register for the beta copy and try that as well. Going forward the software choice available to you is going to be hem2 vs PT4 so compare them at the stage of development that they are at at the moment and see which one you prefer to commit to.

basing your decision on the old versions of the software seems stupid when you can already see what the new versions are going to be like.

[Keith]

secondly , don't get obsessed about rakeback. sure its nice but merge stopped offering it last year,bovada have stopped it etc etc. You may not realise it but some of the merge sites base their vip program on lifetime points earned and if you don't play for a period of time (2 months i think) they decay your points so your vip tier is based upon lifetime points earned minus decayed points. this means that you can end up getting much better VIP bonus rates compared to straight rakeback % and promotes brand loyalty because the more you play the better your vip payouts get.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Sorry. If I seem obsessed about any particular piece of this puzzle, it's because I'm obsessed with the puzzle as a whole.
I'm not too stuck on rakeback, since I know I'm an absolute beginner, looking to grind micros. What I've read makes it seem that rakeback is something you need to establish when you first create an account, so take the long view and get a good rate.
I'm more concerned about finding the best way to choose a site to make my first deposit. Then: What I can do to maximize my learning curve?

P.S. My comment about how I take better notes than most. lol. The HEM2 notes are automatic and make mine look like chicken scratch.

[Stacks]

secondly , don't get obsessed about rakeback. sure its nice but merge stopped offering it last year,bovada have stopped it etc etc. You may not realise it but some of the merge sites base their vip program on lifetime points earned and if you don't play for a period of time (2 months i think) they decay your points so your vip tier is based upon lifetime points earned minus decayed points. this means that you can end up getting much better VIP bonus rates compared to straight rakeback % and promotes brand loyalty because the more you play the better your vip payouts get.

This is true, but the VIP systems are quite under-rewarding.

For example, it seems that on Carbon there are 5 VIP tiers. At the top tier you will be getting 35% in daily cash rebates + eligibility to exchange 5,000 points for $50 (50/500 = 10%). So at the top tier you get the max Merge of 45%. However, to obtain this tier you need to pay $2,500 rake in a calendar month. Which isn't that hard if you are putting in solid volume at 50nl+.

However, the other tiers appear rather laughable honestly. The next highest tier (Water) gives 15% daily cash rebates + exchange of 2,500 points for $22 (22/250 = 8.8%). So you are looking to get 23.8% back. Which is a good bit lower than the traditional rakeback deals offered, and this is after you rake $1k in a month.

It's even worse for the lower tiers, which most microstakes players would obtain.

Lock VIP system seems to be a bit better, in that the lowest tier (after paying $100 in rake in a month) you receive 10% daily cash rebates + 1000 for $10 vip point exchange, for essentially 20% rakeback. Then 30% totals for next VIP tier ($500 rake in a month), 40% for next ($1k rake paid), and 45% for top ($5k rake).

[Keith]

thats the beauty of the lifetime points for micro stakes players , there rewards keep getting better and will reach levels over time that they have no hope of reaching on monthly rake vip levels

I'm currently researching for staking a couple of usa players and have found a deal on merge with lifetime points vip, monthly reload bonuses temporary vip points cash in at higher rate depending on amount raked (>200$) , free drag the bar for the first month and free deuces cracked for raking 500$ a month.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Someone posted that Intertops is not accepting players from MO as of 4/1/12... Well, that sucks. Now I have 2 choices and it's 5NL on Bovada or 10NL on ACR, and I think it's only fair to rule out starting out for the first time at 10NL. Especially since I would rather start at 2NL, given my own choice.

[Sasquach991]

Get the PT3 trial for 60 days. Then get the HM trial for 30 days. Both are easy to set up. After 3 months you should be able to afford the one of your chosing with your winnings.

[Sup3rM4N]

Lock VIP system seems to be a bit better, in that the lowest tier (after paying $100 in rake in a month) you receive 10% daily cash rebates + 1000 for $10 vip point exchange, for essentially 20% rakeback. Then 30% totals for next VIP tier ($500 rake in a month), 40% for next ($1k rake paid), and 45% for top ($5k rake).

That is without the bonus right? So someone who rakes $1k+ a month with a running bonus (worth 13.33% extra RB) would be getting 53.33% RB on lock? pretty sweet.

[Robb]

Chopper is a long time FTR guy who is from St. Louis. That's his FTR name, but I don't know if he's still active, as I've been away from FTR and poker for a while. He's a friend irl, and I have exchanged emails with him, but not interacted with him on FTR lately. You could pm him.

Poker was darn near impossible in the U. S. a year ago. It's reasonably easy to play now. And there's fish at the micro tables I've played this week as I've rejoined the (playing for cash) poker community. Good luck and welcome to FTR!

[BorisTheSpider]

Someone posted that Intertops is not accepting players from MO as of 4/1/12... Well, that sucks. Now I have 2 choices and it's 5NL on Bovada or 10NL on ACR, and I think it's only fair to rule out starting out for the first time at 10NL. Especially since I would rather start at 2NL, given my own choice.

MMM - you post some really nice stuff for a new guy. Don't be afraid to start at 10NL - I started back at 25NL and am breakeven or not much worse. In fact, since a coaching session the other day with Bikes I'd say I'm modestly up, but time will tell if that's statistically solid. I'd always try desperately not to encourage someone to play beyond their ability, but you seem like a thinking player with limited experience like me and I don't think 10NL or 25NL are bad places to start given what I've seen of your mindset.

[rpm]

don't intend to be rude but, ignore this ^ imo. there is no reason to start out at 10nl or 25nl when you can start at 2 or 4nl and learn the lessons for far less the price. if you are the kind of player who can beat 10 or 25nl then you will run through the .02 and .04 games in absolutely no time. chances are you aren't yet the kind of player who can beat 10 or 25nl though. simply because you are new to online poker.

[Robb]

if you are the kind of player who can beat 10 or 25nl then you will run through the .02 and .04 games in absolutely no time.

^^^ +1