25nl: BvB 2nd pair, 2nd nfd

[The Bean Counter]

Quick check: do people think this is a bog-standard call on the flop?

Villain is weak reg over ~80 hands.

SB ($25.10)
Hero (BB) ($25)
UTG ($48.08)
MP ($14.62)
Button ($17.83)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, J
3 folds, SB raises $0.52, Hero calls $0.37

Flop: ($1.24) Q, A, 6 (2 players)
SB bets $0.75, Hero????

[OngBonga]

I'm calling.

[Carroters]

yep

[Pascal]

Me too

[Pelion]

I'm definitely calling here with position rather than raising (though I think your question may have been calling vs folding)

[BorisTheSpider]

Yeah, I'm being a massive station here too.

[griffey24]

Is the question between call or raise, or fold or call?

I don't see how we can EVER fold this bvb.

[Pelion]

I'll explain my thought process a bit better since one word answers to posted hands are one of my pet hates. I don't think there is any value to raising, but I think we easily have enough equity when behind and are ahead often enough that a call with position will be profitable. There are also plenty of worse hands we can raise as a bluff here.

[jackvance]

Standard call. I'm also curious if you were looking for the alternative to fold (which the tone of your post seems to indicate) or raise?

[The Bean Counter]

Op was a bit of a leading question really. I'm not considering folding and the issue is really around raising after reading one of those Savy articles the other day. Mainly I'm going to want to be raising x percentage of the time for value and bluffs.

So, if we said villain opens 35% on the sb, folds to 3bets 65% of the time and 4bets the remainder, i'm going to be defending a lot given immediate pot odds and position and the perception that villain is a weak reg. In all likelihood, I'm:

- 3betting 5% for value (TT+, AJs, AQ+)
- 3betting a minimum of 15%-20% as a bluff (low pps, low suited aces, weak offsuit aces, other suited shite like KXs, etc)
- flatting a minimum of 15%-20% (77-99, A8s-ATs, A9o-AJo, all broadways, lot of suited connectors and suited gappers, some suited two gappers)

The problem is, given the above and assuming villain is competent enough to understand this, there is practically nothing in my flatting range that I can raise for value. Sure I can raise a handful of semi-bluffs including Ks and some airballs, but a competent villain should know this as there are no value hands in my range such as two pair or sets and therefore villain can barrel away pretty easily on a lot of run-outs.

Therefore just wondering if this should be one of the hands I use as a semi-bluff, but it doesn't look like anybody else thinks so. I think I agree, particularly as I doubt villain cbets this board without decent equity (although some may one and done it).

One other issue with the hand is that the flop call is fine if we don't plan for future streets. If I hit 2-pair facing barrels I'm in a tough spot, plus if I hit a low spade facing barrels I'm also struggling but most likely forced to call down. I know this doesn't make the flop a fold and we don't fold just to make life easier for ourselves, but again it's difficult to see how a competent villain wouldn't put us in a tough spot.

\gibberish

[Pelion]

villain opens 35% on the sb, folds to 3bets 65% of the time and 4bets the remainder

So after opening 35%, he is 4betting 35% of that range. Thats 12% of hands. So his 4bet range is something like any pair + any suited broadway + any suited connector and a few other high broadways. That seems somewhat optimistic of you.

When you are calling in position here you should be able to have a tonne of suited hands which will be made flushes on this flop. You should be flatting anything preflop that is profitable to flat, and can't be value 3bet. Given that you have position and a discount on your call (the bb), that is going to be a huge number of hands. Pull your 3bet bluffs from the hands which are not profitable to call (unless he is calling 3bets OOP).

I would expect low medium-high Kxs like K8s, suited aces, SCs and a fair chunk of "suited shite" to be able to call profitably here given that you only need to put in $0.50 (so you are getting an immediate 2:1 as well and position against a weak range). I would also not be 3betting hands like TT,AJs,AQ unless you expect him to call OOP with worse. Don't feel like you have to steal now or never. There will be plenty of chances to bluff with position and some equity postflop and put even more pressure on, or to make very profitable steals when he check/gives up on lots of flops or turns.

I always feel like the more I raise preflop or on early streets, the more I reduce my positional advantage for the rest of the hand.

[Carroters]

You should have plenty stronger hands in your flatting range here that can stand lots of heat. EG. you should have AxJs AxTs KsQx, KsJx, A6s, A6o, Q6s, (If you don't have any 2 pairs here you likely fold to steals too much b vs b.) Then you have a whole host of flushes etc on this board too. If you want to have a raising range in this spot it should probably be 66, flushes, then a bunch of semi bluffs without so much showdown value. QsJx looks to fit perfectly well into your flatting range. It's protected by the above stronger hands. Sure it's unclear how we play turns and river on both spade and non spade run outs, but you should plan vs each villain. If this guy is a weak non bluffy reg then I'm pretty content never calling three bombs on either type of run out.

[Pelion]

The problem is, given the above and assuming villain is competent enough to understand this, there is practically nothing in my flatting range that I can raise for value...
Therefore just wondering if this should be one of the hands I use as a semi-bluff

One more point related to this. If you really have no value raising hands, and you are playing someone good enough to know this, then raising anything at all seems pretty terrible. This is a board where a lot of turn cards will put strong hands in our range even if we don't have them on the flop, so if this really were a spot where we had no nut hands (and it shouldn't be) then calling flops and bluff-raising good turns would be a much better plan for our weak draws than raising flops with no value hands in our range and having to fold when he auto3bets us with his nuts+air.

[OngBonga]

I'll explain my thought process a bit better since one word answers to posted hands are one of my pet hates.

I understand why, but this spot is so standard that I feel expanding on "I'm calling" isn't all that necessary. But for the sake of discussion, and to emphasise why it's so standard, if we fold we're super exploitable and far too nitty post flop, and if we raise we're bloating a pot with 2nd pair and a non-nut draw. There's just no reason to do anything other than call, and it should be obvious.

[griffey24]

Haven't read the other posts yet, but QxJs is too strong to semi-bluff here.

In order for a raise to be a BLUFF it implies that you are able to get BETTER hands to fold. In this case you are mostly hoping for weak Ax hands without a spade to fold. Qx here has too much showdown value, and the Js let's you get to showdown.

A legitimate semi-bluff here would be KJ with a spade, or KT with a spade, or 6x blocking a set, or a hand like 77s.

[WeldPhaser]

One more point related to this. If you really have no value raising hands, and you are playing someone good enough to know this, then raising anything at all seems pretty terrible.

I wouldnt expect a bad reg. who doesn't seem to know much about sizing to know you have no raising hands here.

[Pelion]

I wouldnt expect a bad reg. who doesn't seem to know much about sizing to know you have no raising hands here.

Sorry if it wasn't clear. My last post was talking theoretically.

[WeldPhaser]

Sorry if it wasn't clear. My last post was talking theoretically.

No pRob pel. Wouldn't b you think my point to be b true if bad reg can't size. Shouldn't have to worry bout him knOw ing we don't have a raising range right?