[10NL] T8o...Does villain have worse?

[Cobra_1878]

Villain complete unknown, 6 hands.

PokerStars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: $10.00
SB: $22.17
BB: $11.83
UTG: $22.36
Hero (CO): $10.15

SB posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has T 8

fold, Hero raises to $0.30, fold, fold, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.65, 2 players) 8 T 3
BB bets $0.60, Hero calls $0.60

Turn: ($1.85, 2 players) 3
BB bets $1.80, Hero calls $1.80

River: ($5.45, 2 players) 4
BB bets $5.20, Hero ???

Am I ever good here? 3 barrels OOP...

What are thoughts on a flop raise?

[abelardx]

I like a big flop raise trying to get it in. The turn counterfeits your two pair vs an overpair but you're still beating Tx. tbh I would call him down. I think he has enough Tx to make it at least breakeven. This would be another good hand to do the math on.

edit: I misread the hand. Please disregard everything I said here.

[BorisTheSpider]

Ugh. I probably weaktight-fold the river, but I expect it's bad - this is just like that AK hand I posted, where Ong wanted to station it, and I'm coming around to feeling it might be best just to hold your nose and click the call button. I think you'll see a lot of AA/KK/QQ as well as some busted flushes. Sets too for sure, and flopped flushes, but I think especially if you look at the river in isolation as a spot where you only have to be good a third of the time, it seems like a call.

EDIT: I just realised you're counterfeit by the 3s on board, it probably makes quite a difference.

[abelardx]

Oh I misread the hand. I didn't see it was a monotone flop. I read in Easy Game that people don't often make big bluffs or multi-street bluffs on flush boards. In any case there's now a bunch more hands beating us. I like folding the turn now and I wouldn't raise the flop. That's probably really spewy.

[griffey24]

Hmm we only really bet AsX. His sizing doesn't feel like that to me though. I'd fold river.

[Cobra_1878]

Hmm we only really bet AsX. His sizing doesn't feel like that to me though. I'd fold river.

Are you reading his PSBs as strength??

I thought it was "scared betting", didn't feel like he was value betting me. If he flopped a flush why would he just lead straight out with it? Unless it was really weak like 65ss/76ss and he doesn't want to see another spade, I guess that would make sense.

[OngBonga]

Why are we stealing T8o vs a "complete unknown"?

I'm openfolding pre.

Flop I guess I call this, but his donk sizing looks like a small flush or set to me.

Turn he pots it again after the board pairs. This is better than Tx and we should fold now.

River is also a fold for the same reason as turn.

My opinion. I definitely throw this away pre though.

[Cobra_1878]

Why are we stealing T8o vs a "complete unknown"?

I'm openfolding pre.

Flop I guess I call this, but his donk sizing looks like a small flush or set to me.

Turn he pots it again after the board pairs. This is better than Tx and we should fold now.

River is also a fold for the same reason as turn.

My opinion. I definitely throw this away pre though.

I'm pretty loose in LP, right from the start. If people play back, I slow down. If not, I widen my stealing range further.

[rpm]

'im fine with the steal if the BU is tightish. i'm thinking these leads are more often a strong but vulnerable hand (small-mid flush) or the nuts looking for fat value way more than a triple PSB with the As. as such i think we definitely shouldnt get to showdown vs this line, i just cant decide if i fold turn or river. i'm thinking turn because we very rarely improve and it seems like we're going to face another barrel a lot (which we probably fold to 95% of the time)

edit: i guess i'm saying don't call turn unless you wanna call river unimproved, because we're likely going to have to do just that a high % of the time.

[OngBonga]

'im fine with the steal if the BU is tightish.

Me too, but there's no indication of this. I also want to know that bb folds enough. Based on the information we have, this is a pretty easy snapfold pre for me.

[griffey24]

Yah low flush could def play like this, not wanting another spade to peel out.

[Cobra_1878]

Yeah sorry, BU was 13/8/0 (3bet) over 110 hands, I would never open here if BU was anything other than tight and I had no reads.

Also, I am fairly confident in my ability post-flop, especially when I'm IP. So I will put pressure on the blinds from the get-go.

Thanks rpm, I thought about that and I prob should have folded turn. I just thought he might have hands like Asxx, AsTx etc and he may not fire the river. After responses in the thread, I think a low flush seems most likely and I should have folded turn.

[Keith]

Are you reading his PSBs as strength??

I thought it was "scared betting", didn't feel like he was value betting me. If he flopped a flush why would he just lead straight out with it? Unless it was really weak like 65ss/76ss and he doesn't want to see another spade, I guess that would make sense.

you really need to reevaluate that line of thinking. some hands from my challenge last night.

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

MP2: $2.18 (43.6 bb)
MP3: $2.88 (57.6 bb)
CO: $5 (100 bb)
Hero (BTN): $17.53 (350.6 bb)
SB: $5.77 (115.4 bb)
BB: $10.45 (209 bb)
UTG+1: $12.41 (248.2 bb)
UTG+2: $0.85 (17 bb)
MP1: $1.34 (26.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with A K
3 folds, MP2 raises to $0.15, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.50, SB folds, BB calls $0.45, MP2 folds

Flop: ($1.17) 4 3 A (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.84, BB calls $0.84

Turn: ($2.85) 3 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2.75, BB calls $2.75

River: ($8.35) 6 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $6.50, BB calls $6.36 and is all-in

Results: $21.07 pot ($0.87 rake)
Final Board: 4 3 A 3 6
Hero showed A K and won $20.20 ($9.75 net)
BB mucked Q A and lost (-$10.45 net)

-------------------------------------------------------------
Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

MP1: $1.60 (32 bb)
MP2: $5.32 (106.4 bb)
MP3: $4.98 (99.6 bb)
CO: $4.90 (98 bb)
BTN: $5.81 (116.2 bb)
SB: $2 (40 bb)
BB: $7.81 (156.2 bb)
Hero (UTG+2): $16.62 (332.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with 8 8
Hero raises to $0.15, MP1 calls $0.15, 5 folds, BB calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.47) 2 9 K (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.33, MP1 folds, BB calls $0.33

Turn: ($1.13) 8 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.55, BB calls $1.55

River: ($4.23) K (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $8.45, BB calls $5.78

Results: $15.79 pot ($0.66 rake)
Final Board: 2 9 K 8 K
BB showed K T and lost (-$7.81 net)
Hero showed 8 8 and won $15.13 ($7.32 net)

--------------------------------------------------
Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

UTG+1: $12.59 (251.8 bb)
UTG+2: $5.42 (108.4 bb)
MP1: $5.15 (103 bb)
MP2: $3.54 (70.8 bb)
MP3: $5.07 (101.4 bb)
CO: $5.04 (100.8 bb)
BTN: $1.93 (38.6 bb)
SB: $5.58 (111.6 bb)
Hero (BB): $23.35 (467 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7 T
7 folds, SB raises to $0.10, Hero calls $0.05

Flop: ($0.20) 9 8 6 (2 players)
SB bets $0.19, Hero raises to $0.50, SB calls $0.31

Turn: ($1.20) 5 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.40, SB raises to $4.98 and is all-in, Hero calls $3.58

River: ($11.16) Q (2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $11.16 pot ($0.46 rake)
Final Board: 9 8 6 5 Q
SB showed 7 7 and lost (-$5.58 net)
Hero showed 7 T and won $10.70 ($5.12 net)


sometimes its just a player getting really really fat value .

[OngBonga]

Oh right, so the "complete unknown" on the bb is keith value towning cobra to hell?

[Cobra_1878]

Not one of those hands is similar to the hand I posted.

My hand was villain firing 3 barrels, OOP, all PSBs.

You're IP in all of your hands and you're also the aggressor.

[Keith]

the point i'm making is that with 3 streets of pot sized bets, theres pretty much a reason much closer to fat value than scared bets as the reason behind the bet sizing. Last hand in particular i wasn't the preflop aggressor, but i got very aggressive when i hit a monster.

[OngBonga]

Not one of those hands is similar to the hand I posted.

Yeah it is, you're missing the point. What is Keith doing when he has a monster? Value value value. That's what this guy is doing here. He has a small flush or a set turned boat and is getting fat value vs overpairs and nut flush draws. If he has worse than a set on flop I will puke I'll be in so much shock. I call flop because maybe he can bluff at pot size once and if I get lucky I have two streets to get value vs his monster.

My comment above was meant to be tongue in cheek, suggesting this guy is value towning you to hell.

[tom]

shouldn't we be raising the flop bet most of the time?
I'm raising flop and shutting down after that...