Bet this river deep with KK?

[BorisTheSpider]

BTN is almost unknown, only 25 hands, 46/38 with 18% 3bet so far, but honestly it could so easily be a heater over that sample I almost don't want to post it for fear of biasing peoples responses.

I feel like 5-betting to get it in preflop would be a mistake this deep. If he had those stats over say 100 hands, I'd go with it.

For the same reason, I don't raise the flop. I check the turn expecting him to bet again and am basically in a pretty tough spot then, probably ending up stationing it off, especially since AK just picked up a gutshot and will likely barrel.

Once he doesn't bet the turn though, and the river brings in the backdoor flush, I'm not sure if I can really bet and get value from worse. I looked at it afterwards and felt like perhaps it should have been a bet, but the problem is, with the pot and stacks as they are I can't make anything less than a committing bet - if I bet small, I risk inducing a bluff raise, and if I bet big I basically have to call a shove.

Should the river be a bet, or do we check again?

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

BTN: $78.69 (786.9 bb)
Hero (SB): $23.70 (237 bb)
BB: $10.55 (105.5 bb)
UTG: $10 (100 bb)
MP: $9.02 (90.2 bb)
CO: $52.31 (523.1 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K K
3 folds, BTN raises to $0.30, Hero raises to $1.20, BB folds, BTN raises to $3.70, Hero calls $2.50

Flop: ($7.50) 3 4 J (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $4.10, Hero calls $4.10

Turn: ($15.70) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

River: ($15.70) 7 (2 players)

[griffey24]

Yaah there's value here. Even betting something like $5.50ish, to get hero called by AK/AQ or something (even though we block some AK)

[OngBonga]

Meh why are we sitting deep if we're not willing to gii with KK pre? Why not go sit at another table with 100bb and not be scared of big stacks? I'ma 5bet pre and drool if he shoves.

[matiusaa]

If you are afraid of shoving KK pre being deep, then play middlestack

[BorisTheSpider]

You have to draw the line somewhere - you presumably wouldn't get it in pre 1000bb deep, what about 500bb? I mean, it's probably arguable that 235bb deep we can still just get it in unless he's a nit, but just because we don't want to pile money in preflop with a pair doesn't mean there aren't reasons to be playing deep - there's still a lot of postflop spots where we can get a lot of value or apply a ton of pressure.

[WeldPhaser]

I think getting it in is fine, but also like what Boris brought up about drawing a line playing deep.

If we re thinkng bout applying pressure , what bout c/r otf. I'm rusty so take it easy on me...

[OngBonga]

Yeah agree with boris, I wouldn't play KK for 1000bb... but if I felt I was too deep to be able to play my range freely, then it's time to bank that stack and open another table imo.

[BorisTheSpider]

Yeah agree with boris, I wouldn't play KK for 1000bb... but if I felt I was too deep to be able to play my range freely, then it's time to bank that stack and open another table imo.

I don't think this is necessarily true. It's not really about playing your range freely, it's just about adjusting to playing deep. Again, I'm not saying that 235bb deep we shouldn't just get in KK (I probably lean towards not getting it in absent reads on a player, but I'm not necessarily saying I'm right).

I'm more using the exaggerated example of playing 1000bb deep to make more general points about how you play your range - let's say you could play 1000bb deep with some bad players who had tight preflop stacking off ranges, just because we can't now 5bet KK and stack off profitably, doesn't mean we can't still get a ton of advantages from being deeper - whenever you're playing against someone who doesn't understand relative hand strength postflop as well as you, and who can't handread as well as you, is too willing to play oop, doesn't understand how to adjust their preflop ranges due to the greater implied odds of being deeper etc. you're going to have a bigger advantage the deeper you are. I just think you have to adjust the way you play preflop, and play more postflop poker.

All that said, there's nothing wrong with just banking it. I'm not as comfortable playing 300bb deep as I am 100bb, but I tend to try to sit deep for a while once I do have a stack, to get more experience playing deeper.

[OngBonga]

Well you're right about adjusting to a bigger stack. I find when I'm sitting with 300bb+ that I get more respect for 3bets, so I 3bet wider. And I'm not suggesting blindly getting it in with KK 300bb+ deep, I'm simply saying that I'm prepared to against the right villains, and if I'm scared of losing 3BI+ then it's time for me to bank it.

46/38 with 18% 3bet

This is a good villain to stack KK deep vs imo.

[ISillyDurrrAK]

I'd 4bet PF even deep, especially after villain checked turn IP

[r8ed]

Meh why are we sitting deep if we're not willing to gii with KK pre? Why not go sit at another table with 100bb and not be scared of big stacks? I'ma 5bet pre and drool if he shoves.

I totally agree. I read the replies about stack sizes and I can see your point. However, the correct play is to get as much money in pre flop while you are ahead regardless of your stack size. In fact I would be very content having a deep stack knowing i have a great chance to double it. if he has AQ or AK or even TT and an Ace flops, then you will spend some money figuring out where you are at. And if he misses, he can get away and you just hurt the value of holding KK. I know poker is about post flop play, but KK is a hand you don't need to be creative with. Just get all your chips in. If he has AA, that's just extremely bad luck and you move on. If you are bankrolled properly, there is no real sting losing the hand.

Onto the post flop play. I'm confused about your line of thinking. Do you think he has AA and you want to get away from the hand if so? You mentioned you didn't want to be committed. Or do you think you are ahead? If you think you are ahead, you want more chips in and I would have gone for a check raise on the turn, not a check fold. You are worried about losing to hands that have a minuscule chance of hitting like a gunshot draw. Since he checked behind on the turn and a minor scare card comes on the river, it's hard to get value. I would do 1/2 pot bet because if he checks behind again you probably just lost lots of value because you beat him. If he bets, then you still don't know where you are. So, you have to get 1/2 pot value. He's probably calling with any high pair or AK or AJ because it's not too high. He's folding if he whiffed but what can you do. If he goes over the top, then you can decide if you want to dance or not.

[BorisTheSpider]

I totally agree. I read the replies about stack sizes and I can see your point. However, the correct play is to get as much money in pre flop while you are ahead regardless of your stack size.

Needless to say I disagree, but to clarify, are you saying you stack of preflop here 10,000bb deep?

If he has AA, that's just extremely bad luck and you move on.

I think people are too quick to call KKvAA aipf a cooler sometimes. It mostly is just a cooler, but there are spots where it's not and it's just bad play - say for example we're 350bb deep, we open UTG, a tight player 3bets, and a 9/9 nit who 3bets 2% cold 4bets it - KK is never good there, maybe you'd be calling to chop sometimes, but if you shove, you can never get called by worse.

Onto the post flop play. I'm confused about your line of thinking. Do you think he has AA and you want to get away from the hand if so?

Well, I can't say what he has, but I can put him on a range. Vs. that range, if he barrels the turn, I'm not delighted about getting all the money in but I'm calling to then call most (possibly all) rivers.

I would have gone for a check raise on the turn, not a check fold.

I intended to c/c the turn. I do agree that the river should probably have been a bet as played.

[griffey24]

The fact is, people are even MORE polarized in deep spots. People will also start 3b you more IP when you're deep, cause it puts you in a crappy spot. Conversely, it's harder for ppl to 5b jam over your 4b when they are deep, so you will want to start 4b bluffing them more potentially with deep stacks. If you start 4b bluffing them more, they will start peeling your 4b. If they start peeling your 4b you'll want to start 4b KK.

[Razvan729]

if not ready to play KK >200bb deep, then just leave table and start 100bb again. it's better for you
if you wanna play that deep, move to 25nl.
bet 4-6/decide river.

[r8ed]

I hear what you are saying and appreciate your logic. I'm definitely not going to slam you and say "move to pennies bro", which doesn't help anybody. But, I think your argument examples are the extremes of the situation and they shouldn't apply to this one. In a perfect world, you would be able to play every hand the same way regardless of how many bb deep you were and that's what I'm trying to push you toward with my post. In live games, emotions and reading people is a huge part of poker. Online, you have to play like you are a computer program - one that learns from opponent tendencies, but pretty close to an emotionless bot. In this hand you are way ahead of everything but AA JJ and possibly low sets. Ignore the draws. This guy probably hit a hot streak but the fact that he has 18% 3Bet means he's willing to splash some money around. I'm interested in how this hand turns out.