2NL - Flopped Set vs Villain Shove

[BigSlickBaby]

Full Flush Poker Game #1195418183: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/0.02) - 2014/09/08 06:01:50 Eastern Daylight Time
Table 'Magic Moments' 10-Max, Seat #6 is the button
Seat 6: PokerGodxx (4.86 in chips) - The button
Seat 0: weswesyall (5.26 in chips)
Seat 9: byrdraga (1.73 in chips) - Big Blind
Seat 3: BigSlick69 (3.00 in chips)
Seat 7: ctcomics (4.06 in chips) - Small Blind
ctcomics: posts small blind 0.01
byrdraga: posts big blind 0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BigSlick69 [4d 4s]
weswesyall: folds
BigSlick69: raises 0.08 to 0.08
PokerGodxx: folds
ctcomics: calls 0.07
byrdraga: folds
*** FLOP *** [4h 3c 6s]
ctcomics: checks
BigSlick69: bets 0.14
ctcomics: raises 3.98 to 3.98 and is all in
Hero???

[Razvan729]

You have to call. You are facing 33/66/5x. It is a +EV call. Stove your hand vs his range.

[BigSlickBaby]

You have to call. You are facing 33/66/5x. It is a +EV call. Stove your hand vs his range.

Agreed. Wait until you see what this guy was holding though. Here's as played:

BigSlick69: calls 2.78
Uncalled bet (1.06) returned to ctcomics
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ctcomics shows 5s 2s
BigSlick69 shows 4d 4s
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5.72 | Rake 0.30
Board [4h 3c 6s Jh Ah]
Seat 6: PokerGodxx folded before Flop
Seat 0: weswesyall folded before Flop
Seat 9: byrdraga folded before Flop
Seat 3: BigSlick69 showed [4d 4s] but did not win
Seat 7: ctcomics showed [5s 2s] and won (5.72)

edit: Do some of you really still use Pokerstove? It hasn't been supported in ages. I thought it was all about PokerRanger, Flopzilla, and Equilab at this point, no?

[ledfut]

I probably call here, despite the fact that players don't tend to shove bluff at $2nl. They will shove with an over pair enough that you can think your set is good. Do you use a HUD? If so, can we see some stats on villain?

[BigSlickBaby]

I do use a HUD. I use PT4 extensively. The thing is that FullFlush is still a relatively new US network and although it's population is growing fast, PT4 has yet to add support for it (and HM2 for that matter) despite numerous calls for such a thing. Even as it is, I can't even find a converter that will work well with BetOnline or FullFlush.

Basically, on this network at the microstakes, they play the way guys apparently did circa 2005/2006/2007. I mean, I didn't play then but I've seen hand histories and what not and people have told me how soft the games were. These guys could have literally anything. I'm up $8.50 @ 2nl in just about 400 hands tonight again off of their ridiculous play. It's really common for them to run about 40/10 and call just about any preflop raise OOP. They might stack off with Ace or King high, they might stack off with TPTK. They're horrible.

Obviously, that's going to lend more to call the shove but ...that's the truth. I have other hands from tonight that I'm going to wind up posting. You'll see...some of it is just crazy. Guy stacked off with the following hand and two guys at the table thought he made a pretty good play and just took a bad beat:


Full Flush Poker Game #1195528932: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/0.02) - 2014/09/09 02:51:52 Eastern Daylight Time
Table 'One and Only' 6-Max, Seat #9 is the button
Seat 6: BigSlick69 (6.62 in chips) - Small Blind
Seat 7: INEEDLUCK (5.93 in chips) - Big Blind
Seat 8: JHAWKW (3.69 in chips)
Seat 9: Emerey (3.22 in chips) - The button
BigSlick69: posts small blind 0.01
INEEDLUCK: posts big blind 0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BigSlick69 [10c Qc]
JHAWKW: raises 0.04 to 0.04
Emerey: folds
BigSlick69: calls 0.03
kittyflap joins the table at seat #5
INEEDLUCK: calls 0.02
*** FLOP *** [Qs 7h Qd]
MrSmitty joins the table at seat #4
BigSlick69: bets 0.09
INEEDLUCK: folds
JHAWKW: calls 0.09
*** TURN *** [Qs 7h Qd][Kh]
BigSlick69: bets 0.30
JHAWKW: calls 0.30
*** RIVER *** [Qs 7h Qd Kh][Qh]
BigSlick69: bets 2.00
JHAWKW: raises 3.26 to 3.26 and is all in
BigSlick69: calls 1.26
*** SHOW DOWN ***
JHAWKW shows Jc Ks
BigSlick69 shows 10c Qc
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 7.05 | Rake 0.37
Board [Qs 7h Qd Kh Qh]
Seat 6: BigSlick69 showed [10c Qc] and won (7.05)
Seat 7: INEEDLUCK folded on the Flop
Seat 8: JHAWKW showed [Jc Ks] but did not win
Seat 9: Emerey folded before Flop

Not that this was the worst one (by any means) but still...I think it was pretty bad for him to shove that river. I was over betting the pot and clearly had the Q. They all found it like amazing that I actually had the Q.

[OngBonga]

This is an easy call. Don't worry about losing your stack with a set, that's variance and it's why you employ a proper bankroll management strategy. When villain shoves he nearly always has sets straights and overpairs, and overpairs is much the bigger part of his range. He's also gonna be spewing AK sometimes because that's what some fish do when AK misses. Call and if he's at the top of his range, shrug your shoulders and reload.

[daven]

give villain a likely range of 33/55/66/77-QQ/25s/57s/34s/36s/46s and see how well 44 fares. Hint, 44 does pretty well in this spot. Even when you got it in almost as bad as possible (vs the straight, 66 would be worse) you still have a bunch of outs and equity.

[daven]

When villain shoves he nearly always has sets straights and overpairs, or two pairs.

fyp , post is gold though!

[STILL_mkd]

I would play the same, that was an easy call. I mean nobody could fold a set on the flop even if we know what villain hold. Your move here was correct, only you didn't have a luck, but these things happen especially when we played against fish like him, so you don't have to be worried about this.

[BigSlickBaby]

give villain a likely range of 33/55/66/77-QQ/25s/57s/34s/36s/46s and see how well 44 fares. Hint, 44 does pretty well in this spot. Even when you got it in almost as bad as possible (vs the straight, 66 would be worse) you still have a bunch of outs and equity.

That's what surprised me: Seeing that even vs the straight itself, my equity was still like 36%. That's crazy.

Thanks again for the input on this guys. I've been doing some more studying about set over set and set vs straight, etc and the more I learn the more it shows me that we're not often folding a set unless there's an obvious flush draw on the board. Is this pretty much the case?

[BigSlickBaby]

He's also gonna be spewing AK sometimes because that's what some fish do when AK misses.

You're 100% correct. I keep hearing fish complain about losing "the most money on AA/AK/KK" and it's because they just don't like to fold them. They feel the natural beginner's entitlement to the pot when they get dealt these hands and sometimes will just unbelievably overplay a hand (even for their whole stack) when it is blatantly obvious that they're not only beat, but destroyed 90/10+. The more I play and the lighter/more liberally I 3bet, the more I get a read on when villain's have JJ+/AK, miss the flop, and are a good candidate for being value bet and eventually river shoved.

[OngBonga]

Seeing that even vs the straight itself, my equity was still like 36%. That's crazy

It's not crazy, it's how likely it is that the board pairs on turn or river. I hate to sound patronising, but you really need to know this. Do you know how much equity you have with a flush draw? What about an open ender? A gutshot? Or improving a pair to trips or 2pr? This is basic stuff, and you need to know how often your hands improve if you're to make correct equity decisions.

[BigSlickBaby]

It's not crazy, it's how likely it is that the board pairs on turn or river. I hate to sound patronising, but you really need to know this. Do you know how much equity you have with a flush draw? What about an open ender? A gutshot? Or improving a pair to trips or 2pr? This is basic stuff, and you need to know how often your hands improve if you're to make correct equity decisions.

I admittedly could know the basic odds and outs a bit better and you've reminded me to spend some more time studying some charts with odds/outs/equity when I spend time working on math...which I do daily. That said, I'm pretty proficient with figuring out my outs and equity during play and generally know when I'm priced in. All of this, and my board reading, has started to come together quite a bit after now about 35k hands. I've started working on combinations and using equity calculators and software like PokerRanger more lately, too.

Still, I'll go back over some of the basic odds/outs charts again until I know them dead in my sleep. You're right, it's something so simple to memorize and there's really no reason for me not to at this point.

[OngBonga]

I will say this... for a noob, you're very promising. You're at the right stakes, asking the right questions, and taking critisism in the correct way. There's a high volume of new members here who are clearly here and posting just because FTR has tightened its password criteria. I get the distinct impression you're here to get better at poker, that cheeseburger freerolls are not your priority. If you can work through maybe 3 or 4 of those articles in the beginner's digest every week, I imagine you'll be a much, much better player this time next year.

If you can memorise common equities, such as improving to full house, then you'll be making better decision in less time at the tables. You shouldn't really need to be counting outs and working out if you're priced in or not, it should come naturally. That said, I still have to do some head scratching to figure out if I'm in or not. But I know I shouldn't need to.

[BigSlickBaby]

I will say this... for a noob, you're very promising. You're at the right stakes, asking the right questions, and taking critisism in the correct way. There's a high volume of new members here who are clearly here and posting just because FTR has tightened its password criteria. I get the distinct impression you're here to get better at poker, that cheeseburger freerolls are not your priority.

Well, thank you. It's good to know that you think I'm on the right track. Honestly, I don't even know about FTR's passwords or anything like that. I just scouted out the more popular poker forums a bit and this one really seemed to have some high quality posts and material in it. There are other forums but they're either too casual for me (same thing like that other thread: What's your favorite color to think about while playing pokerz??!") or they're 2+2 which is OK now and then but of course, due to it's high volume one needs to take the advice they receive there with a grain of salt.

When I set out to start playing this game at the beginning of this summer, I made a strong commitment. The goal here isn't to "have fun" (I always have fun playing poker) or develop a healthy hobby. The goal here is to get as good as I possibly can get, as fast as I can get there ...and then to work even harder. I want to get great at the game and I'm willing to spend as much time, energy, and dedication as is necessary to accomplish that.

[OngBonga]

2+2 is a great poker forum, and tbh it's probably superior to this one in terms of the sheer volume of quality articles and the number of very good players giving advice. However, I much prefer a smaller community, which is why I stuck at it here rather than there. FTR is like a village on the outskirts of 2+2 city. I fucking hate the city. Too many people.

[daven]

That's what surprised me: Seeing that even vs the straight itself, my equity was still like 36%. That's crazy.

maths huh

the more I learn the more it shows me that we're not often folding a set unless there's an obvious flush draw on the board. Is this pretty much the case?

there's a big difference between middle set and bottom set in some situations. but, yeah, don't fold flopped sets at 2nl is probably a pretty good rule of thumb. And try and pile the money in fast is another.

[OngBonga]

I'm not folding a set at the micros barring exceptional circumstances. Like tens on a TJQK board, that kind of exceptional. I might call down rather than stack it, if villain's range is dangerous enough. But you need a very good reason to fold a set really.

[BigSlickBaby]

2+2 is a great poker forum, and tbh it's probably superior to this one in terms of the sheer volume of quality articles and the number of very good players giving advice. However, I much prefer a smaller community, which is why I stuck at it here rather than there. FTR is like a village on the outskirts of 2+2 city. I fucking hate the city. Too many people.

One of the problems with 2p2 though (and keep in mind, I do still read/post there a bit) is that you really need to take the advice you get on hand histories and what not with a huge grain of salt. Some of the advice is absolutely golden, and some of it is absolutely terrible. For the lower stakes cash games, a lot of the players offering the most advice in the hand history section are actually some of the biggest whales on the forum for those very stakes. Of course, there are great poker minds abound and posting but you need to take the time to realize who's who before you start taking advice and running with it, you know?

On here, if someone makes a statement or a suggestion that is pure trash, it's immediately jumped on by three or four members of the community. New players would have a much harder time misinterpreting information on a forum like this.

Of course though, different forums serve different purposes. The sheer volume and wealth of information on 2p2 is invaluable. I'll keep posting here and there but ...for different reasons.

[griffey24]

This is a huge fistpump snap call.