set gone bad?, sucker straight? KK all-in cracked? help!

[fishstick]

a couple of examples of play gone wrong that i could really use some insights on. see my comments above each hand.

still having a tough time - between the cards not going right and my own stupidity (i won't post the hand where i had Ak, flopped a K with rags (turn/river nothing cards), and went all-in with the table rock who of course had AA - in this person's notes, i had earlier made the notation "be careful" - i may have to change my name to just "fish" )

hand 1 - set of 8's
how should i have responded to getting checked on the turn?
should i have checked the river?
should i just toss it in and join the bridge club?

***** Hand History for Game 531643513 *****
0/0 TexasHTGameTable (PL) - Sat Apr 17 01:37:23 EDT 2004
Table cascade (Real Money) -- Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: seat 1 ( $76.04)
Seat 2: seat 2 ( $17)
Seat 3: seat 3 ( $24.50)
Seat 4: seat 4 ( $40.75)
Seat 5: seat 5 ( $55.29)
Seat 6: seat 6 ( $23.50)
Seat 7: fishstick ( $36.07)
Seat 8: seat 8 ( $19.45)
Seat 9: seat 9 ( $10)
Seat 10: seat 10 ( $9.50)
seat 8 posts small blind (0.25)
seat 9 posts big blind (0.50)
seat 2 posts big blind (0.50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to fishstick [ 8d, 8h ]
seat 10 folds.
seat 1 calls (0.50)
seat 2 checks.
seat 3 calls (0.50)
seat 4 calls (0.50)
seat 5 calls (0.50)
seat 6 folds.
fishstick calls (0.50)
seat 8 calls (0.25)
seat 9 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Th, 8s, 9s ]
seat 8 checks.
seat 1 checks.
seat 2 checks.
seat 3 bets (0.50)
seat 4 calls (0.50)
seat 5 calls (0.50)
fishstick raises (5) to 5
seat 8 folds.
seat 1 folds.
seat 2 folds.
seat 3 calls (4.50)
seat 4 folds.
seat 5 folds.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Jd ]
seat 3 checks.
fishstick checks.
** Dealing River ** : [ 5c ]
seat 3 checks.
fishstick bets (14.25)
seat 3 calls (14.25)
** Summary **
Main Pot: $41.35 | Rake: $2.15
Board: [ Th 8s 9s Jd 5c ]
seat 1 balance $75.54, lost $0.50 (folded)
seat 2 balance $16.50, lost $0.50 (folded)
seat 3 balance $46.10, bet $19.75, collected $41.35, net +$21.60 [ Tc Qd ] [ a straight, eight to queen -- Qd,Jd,Tc,9s,8s ]
seat 4 balance $39.75, lost $1 (folded)
seat 5 balance $54.29, lost $1 (folded)
seat 6 balance $23.50, didn't bet (folded)
fishstick balance $16.32, lost $19.75 [ 8d 8h ] [ three of a kind, eights -- Jd,Th,8d,8h,8s ]
seat 8 balance $18.95, lost $0.50 (folded)
seat 9 balance $24.50, lost $0.50 (folded)
seat 10 balance $9.50, didn't bet (folded)

hand 2 - gutshot str draw
- i think my play was fine until the river - should i have folded to seat 8's big raise, knowing that i didn't have the nut str?

***** Hand History for Game 531716933 *****
0/0 TexasHTGameTable (PL) - Sat Apr 17 02:09:30 EDT 2004
Table cascade (Real Money) -- Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 1: seat 1 ( $63.84)
Seat 3: seat 3 ( $11.40)
Seat 4: seat 4 ( $75.70)
Seat 5: seat 5 ( $39.85)
Seat 7: fishstick ( $17.02)
Seat 8: seat 8 ( $31.65)
Seat 10: seat 10 ( $10.60)
seat 4 posts small blind (0.25)
seat 5 posts big blind (0.50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to fishstick [ 9c, Th ]
fishstick calls (0.50)
seat 8 calls (0.50)
seat 10 folds.
seat 1 folds.
seat 3 calls (0.50)
seat 4 raises (0.75) to 1
seat 5 calls (0.50)
fishstick calls (0.50)
seat 8 calls (0.50)
seat 3 calls (0.50)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 3d, Jd, Kh ]
seat 4 checks.
seat 5 checks.
fishstick checks.
seat 8 checks.
seat 3 checks.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Tc ]
seat 4 checks.
seat 5 bets (1)
fishstick calls (1)
seat 8 calls (1)
seat 3 calls (1)
seat 4 calls (1)
** Dealing River ** : [ Qh ]
seat 4 checks.
seat 5 bets (9.50)
fishstick calls (9.50)
seat 8 raises (19) to 19
seat 3 folds.
seat 4 folds.
seat 5 folds.
fishstick calls (5.52)
fishstick is all-In.
Creating Main Pot with $47.09 with fishstick
** Summary **
Main Pot: $47.09 | Side Pot 1: $3.98 | Rake: $2.45
Board: [ 3d Jd Kh Tc Qh ]
seat 1 balance $63.84, didn't bet (folded)
seat 3 balance $9.40, lost $2 (folded)
seat 4 balance $73.70, lost $2 (folded)
seat 5 balance $28.35, lost $11.50 (folded)
fishstick balance $0, lost $17.02 [ 9c Th ] [ a straight, nine to king -- Kh,Qh,Jd,Th,9c ]
seat 8 balance $61.72, bet $21, collected $51.07, net +$30.07 [ Ad 5d ] [ a straight, ten to ace -- Ad,Kh,Qh,Jd,Tc ]
seat 10 balance $10.60, didn't bet (folded)

hand 3 ($6 tourney) - 9th
- i'm not thrilled with going all-in pre-flop, but figured if not with KK, then what???
- should i have called the 160 after i'd seen the flop? at that point, i felt pretty pot committed

***** Hand History for Game 536544512 *****
15/30 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 3276092) - Mon Apr 19 01:38:27 EDT 2004
Table Table 11867 (Real Money) -- Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: seat 1 (770)
Seat 2: seat 2 (770)
Seat 3: seat 3 (995)
Seat 5: seat 5 (1585)
Seat 6: seat 6 (560)
Seat 7: fishstick (740)
Seat 8: seat 8 (740)
Seat 9: seat 9 (1115)
Seat 10: seat 10 (725)
seat 9 posts small blind (10)
seat 10 posts big blind (15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to fishstick [ Kh, Ks ]
seat 1 folds.
seat 2 folds.
seat 3 folds.
seat 5 calls (15)
seat 6: u got me
seat 6 calls (15)
seat 5: yup
fishstick raises (100) to 100
seat 5: had to play it
seat 6: nh
seat 5: ty
seat 8 raises (300) to 300
seat 9 folds.
seat 10 folds.
seat 5 folds.
seat 6 calls (285)
fishstick raises (400) to 500
seat 8 calls (200)
seat 6 raises (260) to 560
seat 6 is all-In.
fishstick calls (60)
seat 8 calls (60)
Creating Main Pot with $1720 with seat 6
** Dealing Flop ** : [ As, Ah, 3h ]
seat 5: gl all in
fishstick bets (180)
fishstick is all-In.
seat 8 calls (180)
seat 8 is all-In.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 2h ]
** Dealing River ** : [ Qd ]
Creating Side Pot 1 with $360 with fishstick,seat 8
** Summary **
Main Pot: 1720 | Side Pot 1: 360
Board: [ As Ah 3h 2h Qd ]
seat 1 balance 770, didn't bet (folded)
seat 2 balance 770, didn't bet (folded)
seat 3 balance 995, didn't bet (folded)
seat 5 balance 1570, lost 15 (folded)
seat 6 balance 1720, bet 560, collected 1720, net +1160 [ Qh Jh ] [ a flush, ace high -- Ah,Qh,Jh,3h,2h ]
fishstick balance 0, lost 740 [ Kh Ks ] [ two pairs, aces and kings -- As,Ah,Kh,Ks,Qd ]
seat 8 balance 360, bet 740, collected 360, lost -380 [ Ac Kc ] [ three of a kind, aces -- Ac,As,Ah,Kc,Qd ]
seat 9 balance 1105, lost 10 (folded)
seat 10 balance 710, lost 15 (folded)


thanks for taking a look - i do appreciate it. if these trends continue, i will have to quit my job and pursue my rap career as MC DUMBASS (the other great, white rapper)!

[jmrogers7]

Hand #1: I think I would have probably followed up that $5 bet post-flop with another at the turn. He would've either slow-played your bet (highly unlikely since his straight was counterfieted with the 10 on the board) and just called or came over the top on you right there. You were beaten but I think you could've minimized your losses. The bet on the river was definitely to much and I think that if he did just call on the turn I would've simply checked the river.

Hand #2: Personally I would not have even played this hand given your position. I would only play 9T in late position with 4 or more callers and even then probably only if it was suited. Given that, since you had the sucker straight there is no way I would have called that large bet of your opponents on the river. You were beaten by anyone with an A. Very hard to throw away a straight but you will save yourself money if you can make those types of calls.

Hand #3: Well, I'm of the opinion that I can never second guess myself if I were to go all-in pre-flop with either KK or AA. So, if you had gone all-in pre-flop I don't think anyone could fault that decision. Now, that said, since you didn't go all-in pre-flop and still had 180 chips left and that flop came down, I think you made the wrong call to throw your last 180 in the pot. I don't believe in the notion of being "pot committed". I think, as hard as it is to do, the correct play after that flop would have been to throw away your KK. Yes, you would have been down to 180 chips, but I have seen players in those 10-man sit 'n' go's under 100 chips only to come back and place in the money. I hear many, many people speak of being pot-committed but what that is essentially saying is that you are going to throw the rest of your chips in the pot and "hope" that you can luck into a win. When, in your mind you know that you are praying for a miracle because you know that you are beat, and the correct play is to fold. That being said, I have in the past done the very same thing. That notion of being pot committed is a killer and we have all fallen victim to it and gone against what we know we should do only to lose all of our bankroll in a ring game or finish out of the money in a tourney. It has taken me while to get past the "pot committed" thing but now that I am past it it has saved me ALOT of money that I would have otherwise lost had I made the pot committed calls. It is a psychological self-trap that costs many players alot of money.

Just my 2 cents!

[fishstick]

thanks, jm. in hind site, i agree with all of your points. regarding your comments on hand #3 (the KK tourney hand), about a week ago, i watched some one come back from 20 chips in the early rounds to win the tourney.

it was a weekend of not knowing when to cut my losses. definitely a hole in my game.

thanks again for the detailed analysis!

us old guys have to stick together!

[jmrogers7]

us old guys have to stick together!

Without question! All the young guys on here are ALL sharks! Especially that Fnord guy!

[jmrogers7]

i watched some one come back from 20 chips in the early rounds to win the tourney.

Yeah, the pot-committed thing killed me for quite a while. It is no doubt extremely difficult to throw away a hand after you've invested so much into it. But you are correct, it is a leak and the sooner it can be plugged the better off you'll be.

Best of luck!

[Aces]

Great avatar, JM

Hand #1 - can't see going allin with any Q or 7 making a straight. Would've either checked or made a nominal bet. Anything over the top - fold.

Hand #2 - I agree. I won't normally play T9o from any position, but especially not in EP.

Hand #3 - With that much in already, I probably would've re-raised all in preflop w/KK. Given your preflop bet and the flop, I probably would've had to fold at that point.

So, I guess I pretty much second JMs comments.

[mike4066]

Hand #1

He checked the turn/river. 4 to a row on the board, you can't beat the straight. Call me a chicken but I would have check / folded on this hand.

Hand #2

I believe the T was just enough to keep you in when you should have folded. The Q put another straight on the board. You have to recognize that you have the "dummie end" of the straight and play it like second best hand.

Hand #3
If you can't go all-in preflop with KK what are you waiting for? I would have had the same problem.

I've been guilty of all of the mistakes above and you'll learn from these.

Toughest part of playing holdem is laying down hands.

[Fnord]

Hand 1: If you didn't bet the turn here, then don't bet the river. Think: "What hands will he call my bet with?" This hand went ugly fast, be glad he didn't bet into you. A key conecept here is to slow way down when a single card (well technically 4) has your hand beat.

Hand 2: I won't complain about the starting hand selection. Just if you're gonna play that stuff... Hanging around in a small multi-pot with 3rd pair, sucker straight draw was just asking for trouble.

Hand 3: You lost with by far the best hand when all your chips went into the center of the table. Hard to go wrong with that...

[fishstick]

all good feedback.

thanks again, guys. 8)