AQs felt for 77bb?

guy is a bad regular that doesn't reload running at 22/16/4.2 (3b)
is flatting better or 3b/get it in?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($129.05)
MP ($77.05)
Button ($101.10)
SB ($312.30)
Hero (BB) ($104.05)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, A
1 fold, MP bets $3.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $13, MP raises to $39.50, Hero raises to $104.05 (All-In) because he's committed after 3bing

[Da GOAT]

I fold to his 4bet. You should of had a plan when you 3bet. You could call him pre too though its dirty.

He has too much behind still to felt.

[griffey24]

If you assume he's not folding.. then you're essentially just calling his shove outright

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.354% 33.68% 04.68% 17875933 2482798.00 { AcQc }
Hand 1: 61.646% 56.97% 04.68% 30239895 2482798.00 { TT+, AQs+, AsJs }

Calling $77 to win a $17.50 pot, so 1.227:1 and you need 45%.

Foldddd.. and I'd even argue that his range is stronger having 4bet smaller as opposed to just 4bet jamming outright.

I fold to his 4bet. You should of had a plan when you 3bet.

the plan was to felt to a shove

[griffey24]

I fold to his 4bet. You should of had a plan when you 3bet.

the plan was to felt to a shove

Foldddd.. and I'd even argue that his range is stronger having 4bet smaller as opposed to just 4bet jamming outright.

hmmm something seems backwards here!

[Da GOAT]

I fold to his 4bet. You should of had a plan when you 3bet.

the plan was to felt to a shove

im slightly confused bcoz id say that then its all worked out and your posting bcoz you r being results orientated. or are you asking for opinions if you are wrong which doesnt appear to be your style.

[IowaSkinsFan]

I'd threebet smaller, especially with this specific hand.

griffey laid out the math well, fold to the fourbet.

I fold to his 4bet. You should of had a plan when you 3bet.

the plan was to felt to a shove

im slightly confused bcoz id say that then its all worked out and your posting bcoz you r being results orientated. or are you asking for opinions if you are wrong which doesnt appear to be your style.

well I'm asking for critique of my plan to 3b/call it off

I could plan to 3b/fold
I could also plan to flat so I don't have to fold my hand ever

[griffey24]

Whether or not you felt AQss here is the most villain dependent/game flow dependent decision.

You need reads to ship pre though. If you've been 3betting him non stop and he's likely to 4bet bluff you, then I'd be fine 3bet getting it in. If you know he's the type to 4bet bluff or 4bet very wide (any pair here etc) then I'd also be fine getting it in.

If you know he calls lots of 3bets OOP and rarely 4bets, I'm fine 3betting.

But to both 3bet AND get it in you for sure need stronger reads than the reads you seem to have.

[minSim]

(griffey, villains IP)

Iopq, although I assumed a serious 100NL player having done this, your recent threads suggests otherwise; you should do some math about how wide someone needs to 3bet, 4bet and 5bet in common situations to get a feeling how wide ranges actually have to be for all these big bets to be profitable.

griffey made an error in his math, we're calling $64 not $77
pot is $144 if we win so we need 44.4% equity

I mean if he felts AJo here we can call, if he doesn't we can't call
and I guess I'm not up to date on 75BB pf all in ranges

[nutsinho]

what is going on? We are calling 64 to win 90.50. We need 41.4% equity, and he's likely not flatting our 3bet with these stacks with 22-99....
I would certainly call now, but I would have flatted preflop.

[Parasurama]

just for clarification, nutsinho was correct but he rounded some of the numbers:

64.05 / (90.55 + 64.05) = 0.414294955

[griffey24]

what is going on? We are calling 64 to win 90.50. We need 41.4% equity, and he's likely not flatting our 3bet with these stacks with 22-99....

I think we need more info/reads on how hero is playing to assume he will cold 4bet/get it in with all these pairs vs hero's 3betting/jamming range. I'm assuming this isn't some crazy aggro game with lots of cold 4betting etc.

If he's 4bet/getting it in with 77+ it's still close. Unless hero is being a spazz, I doubt villain gets it in wider than that.

what is going on? We are calling 64 to win 90.50. We need 41.4% equity, and he's likely not flatting our 3bet with these stacks with 22-99....
I would certainly call now, but I would have flatted preflop.

thanks I messed up my math too pot is 154 not 144

I tested out flatting AQ and 3bing AQ and I'm still trying to figure out in which cases I should be doing which
so if he was 100BB I think it's possible to play my hand for a 3b and then fold if I get 4b without any kind of 4bing dynamic going on because I'll create a situation where he's 4bing all the hands that dominate me and flatting hands that I have good equity against

I guess after stoving it it's pretty marginal to get it in so a flat is better

[pocketfours]

-> BC imo

-> BC imo

thanks for adding to the discussion
I was hoping to talk about 4b shoving 77BB deep vs. me and what should be the ideal stack-off ranges and the mathematics for a 4b shove bluff (which this guy didn't do obv)

so if he opens to 3.5 and I 3b to 13, he shoves for 77
if I call and he has 35% equity vs. my range with a small pp
.35 * 154 = 53.9

he put in 74.5 into the pot, so he's risking 20.6 to win 13
if I fold 61% of my range it's profitable
QQ+,AK is 2.6% of starting hands
so if I 3b 6.7% out of the BB and felt only QQ+,AK he will break even on his bluff
if I 3b any higher I need to expand my range

however, I 3b only around that much so I don't need to worry about being exploited because I already have built-in protection from my value range

gotta fold you gotta think your up against aces kings or queens folding to the four bet