HELP! Please.

[Ro_Joe]

I don't have my pokertracker numbers or Hand Histories with me at the moment but will post them as a follow up to this message. I'm rated as SLPA (Slightly Loose Passive Agressive) in PT. Working on the Passive part. I've been playing for the past few months and was doing pretty good up until the last week or so. I play primarily on the 25NL tables at Party. For the past week it doesn't seem to matter what I do I can't win.

Here are some examples:

1) Hold AK in LP. One call from UTG, I bet $3, SB folds, BB calls, and then UTG folds. So its just me and the BB. Flop comes A,10, 4. I bet $5 on the flop. BB calls. Turn shows an 8. I bet $12. BB calls. River comes 6. I go all-in and BB calls. I had no read on the player since it was only a couple of hands after joining the table. We turn over and he hit the 6 for his set and takes my stack. With the board of A-10-4-8-6 I had no indication of a straight or flush. This is the kind of crap that has happened to me for over a week now. Seems like more and more calling stations on 25NL Part. Please tell me I played this right and the other guy was a lucky idiot. I'm about to lose my mind over this stuff.

2) The other scenario is that there will be myself and a couple of others in a hand and one of them will hit a set on the flop and never raise it or give any indication that they have top hand. I'm betting my top pair or two pair and get crunched when we turn over our cards. I'm pretty agressive when I think I have the hand so I'm doing what Fnord suggest...."bring the XXXXXX hammer". Result....lose my stack.

3) Third scenario.....I have KQ and flop comes AQQ. I make greater than pot bet. Get called by one person. Turn comes A giving me a Qs over Aces boat. Betting like a maniac and one guy keeps calling me. He never raises. Result - he turns over 4 Aces. He never raised preflop or gave any indication of strength.

HELP!!!!! How would you guys play these. I want to think I maybe played them wrong, but after review can't see it. Am I just on one of those bad runs where it doesn't matter what I do I'm gonna lose type of things.

By the way.....this is a great site. I don't post much as you can tell, but follow the site closely.

Thanks in advance for any advice given.

[journey075]

1.) i woulda put all my chips in before the river. the chance he has something that beats top pair after 7 cards isnt bad. i would probably have pushed on the turn if i decided i was going to tie myself into the hand. however, i would probably have slowed down and checked the turn. not a terrible play but you do realize after 7 cards you have one pair on a straight board. the guy was an absolute moron though.

2.) two pair vs set, youll probably lose money every time. but something to think about...calling doesnt necessarily indicate weakness. it also represents strength. it says 'you cant push me out of this hand, i belong in here just as much as you.' i would have bet two pair the same but once again, getting married to one pair is never a good idea.

3.) you have a very weak hand here. what hand is going to call you that you have beat? only hands that will call are ones with a Q or ones with an A. i say you are either looking to tie or lose this pot. i would check/fold this one if ever given a sign of strength and since none was given id be happy to see a free showdown.

i agree with you that players this passive are annoying to play with. just make value bets (not all in after 7 cards with a pair) when you think youre ahead and youll be fine. youre not a terrible player by any means.

[drmcboy]

1 & 2 - two pair against a set usually you should go broke, TPTK sometimes you do need to re evaulate if someone is calling every street - if there are draws out it's less scary, but if the board is nasty like you menion, what hands could dude be calling your bets with? You're down to reads here, will this guy call with second pair or TPGK? What is your table image, have you shown some weak hands? If you've been playing tight and another tight player is calling you down, TPTK is usually no good.

In the first hand you mention, you may not have had a read before this hand, but you sure do now, this is a guy you need to play any reasonable hand against. Specific to this hand he got very lucky.

On the last hand why are you betting once the second A comes - what do you think he called you with on the flop? It's bad luck but this is now a pretty easy fold. No way your hand is good there. Why would he raise with the nut full (or quads as it turned out) - giving free cards is good here. Seems like you thought the second A was a good card, but I'm not sure why.

PS if you bet the river and he didn't raise, he's the worst player ever.

[Ro_Joe]

1.) i woulda put all my chips in before the river. the chance he has something that beats top pair after 7 cards isnt bad. i would probably have pushed on the turn if i decided i was going to tie myself into the hand. however, i would probably have slowed down and checked the turn. not a terrible play but you do realize after 7 cards you have one pair on a straight board. the guy was an absolute moron though.

2.) two pair vs set, youll probably lose money every time. but something to think about...calling doesnt necessarily indicate weakness. it also represents strength. it says 'you cant push me out of this hand, i belong in here just as much as you.' i would have bet two pair the same but once again, getting married to one pair is never a good idea.

3.) you have a very weak hand here. what hand is going to call you that you have beat? only hands that will call are ones with a Q or ones with an A. i say you are either looking to tie or lose this pot. i would check/fold this one if ever given a sign of strength and since none was given id be happy to see a free showdown.

i agree with you that players this passive are annoying to play with. just make value bets (not all in after 7 cards with a pair) when you think youre ahead and youll be fine. youre not a terrible player by any means.

Thanks for the response Journey.

1) most of our stacks were already in by the river. It was more of a fromality of going all-in at that point. I figure he said to himself that he was pot committed at that point so what the hell. But I understand what your saying.

2) OK....I'm beginning to think the mentality on the 25NL tables at PP is a lot about just chasing every hand. Do other's see this or is it just me.

3) Very good advice. I guess my agression takes over when I have boat and I'm not getting any feedback other than a call. I'm thinking "oh....here's another chaser".

Thanks again for the feedback.

[Ro_Joe]

On the last hand why are you betting once the second A comes - what do you think he called you with on the flop? It's bad luck but this is now a pretty easy fold. No way your hand is good there. Why would he raise with the nut full (or quads as it turned out) - giving free cards is good here. Seems like you thought the second A was a good card, but I'm not sure why.

PS if you bet the river and he didn't raise, he's the worst player ever.

drmcboy....yep, now that you put it this way I was pretty stupid. I guess I'm just seeing all the crap people call with and that was what was in my head. By the way, I think we were all-in on the river so that's why he didn't raise.

Thanks for the feeback. I need to step back and take a better look.

[drmcboy]

Makes sense. Don't beat yourself up too much, getting started is hard for two reasons:

1) You're learning to play correctly, but everyone makes mistakes, newbs more so.
2) Even playing correctly, bad players will still draw out, especially at lower limits when they aren't smart enough to fold. Just keep making good plays, they won't beat the odds long term. I think the math on the first hand after the turn is you're about a 20 to 1 favorite to win this pot, that's the kind of spot you want to be in!

[Ro_Joe]

Makes sense. Don't beat yourself up too much, getting started is hard for two reasons:

1) You're learning to play correctly, but everyone makes mistakes, newbs more so.
2) Even playing correctly, bad players will still draw out, especially at lower limits when they aren't smart enough to fold. Just keep making good plays, they won't beat the odds long term. I think the math on the first hand after the turn is you're about a 20 to 1 favorite to win this pot, that's the kind of spot you want to be in!

drmcboy.....

1) I think my first post may have been a little misleading. I've been playing online for about 6 months, but only the past couple of months more active. I had my BR up to $1200 (initial $200 deposit and a small bonus). Dropped close to $300 over past 10 days. Definitely still trying to learn more every day.

2) Yep....I had it about 20 to 1 as well. He had 2 outs and caught it on the river. I commted to him that I was surprised he called and he said he figured...."what the hell, he had a pair of sixes and may get lucky."

Wanted to stress that this has happened a lot and was wondering if others have seen this same trend on 25NL lately.

[bigred]

Scenario 1 is a badbeat. I don't see how putting all your chips in earlier would have changed anything. Honestly, TPTK is not a monster, it's just a pair. Don't put your chips in on such a week hand unless you think you know you're ahead. Besides,you're playing microlimits and people are idiots. He could have as likely had two pair.

If bad beats are driving you nuts, remember this: good players play in hands because they know/believe they are ahead. Therefore, most of the time they lose hands is because of bad beats. It's just a regular thing as you progress.

I think the other scenarios are well discusses. You knew you were beat with the QQAA board. Playing when you know you're beat is like shooting yourself in the foot.

[Ro_Joe]

....You knew you were beat with the QQAA board. Playing when you know you're beat is like shooting yourself in the foot.

bigred....thanks for the comments. Unfortunately, I didn't know I was beat at the time. Should have know I was beat. But still have a real tough time laying down a boat. Especially when the other guy is slow playing the nuts.

So are you saying you would fold the boat when all the guy is doing is calling? Or better yet, are you saying you would not raise in this situation, but rather just check and see if he raises?

Thanks again.

[drmcboy]

Sorry, didn't mean to mis-label you.

I think you'll find most good players move from TAG to a looser, more aggresive strat for exactly the reason big red mentions - namely that playing tight you're either taking the KK vs AA beat (which to me is just as bad as having 88 draw out on the KK) or you take a standard bad beat, almost everytime you lose money. So you wait wait wait then get sucked out. It's actually less painful and more fun to give up on pots where you raise with junk than to watch AA get beat yet again by clueless moron #8 - for me, I guess - that's probably an individual thing. When I get a monter beat it pains me, when someone picks me off on a bluff I can just smile and move on.

[Ro_Joe]

Sorry, didn't mean to mis-label you.

I think you'll find most good players move from TAG to a looser, more aggresive strat for exactly the reason big red mentions - namely that playing tight you're either taking the KK vs AA beat (which to me is just as bad as having 88 draw out on the KK) or you take a standard bad beat, almost everytime you lose money. So you wait wait wait then get sucked out. It's actually less painful and more fun to give up on pots where you raise with junk than to watch AA get beat yet again by clueless moron #8 - for me, I guess - that's probably an individual thing. When I get a monter beat it pains me, when someone picks me off on a bluff I can just smile and move on.

Ain't it the trutch regarding bad beats. I've got 15K hands in PT. Up until about a month ago it had me as TPA. I've gotten slightly looser in preflop. I'll post my PT numbers and hand histories cause I would really like some feedback on my preflop verses post flop play. I know I have a LOT of improving to do to become even close to a solid player. I'd appreciate any feedback I can get. Thanks again.

[bigred]

What I'm saying is with a board of of AAQQ the only guy in his right mind who will play back at you has an A (or QQ or AA obviously). It doesn't matter if that guy had AA or A2o. He had you beat with an A.

[Ro_Joe]

Understand bigred....thanks for the help.

and the bad beats keep happening. Here is a hand from tonight.

Table Table 36951 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: cheapdotcom ( $24.5 )
Seat 2: grooboggle ( $64.2 )
Seat 3: Stepinfoo ( $14.4 )
Seat 4: Imperial_641 ( $18.5 )
Seat 5: Gilbo125 ( $67.15 )
Seat 6: Ro_Joe ( $24.75 )
Ro_Joe posts small blind [$0.1].
cheapdotcom posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Ro_Joe [ Qd Ah ]
grooboggle calls [$0.25].
Stepinfoo calls [$0.25].
Imperial_641 calls [$0.25].
Gilbo125 raises [$1].
Ro_Joe calls [$0.9].
cheapdotcom folds.
grooboggle folds.
Stepinfoo calls [$0.75].
Imperial_641 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jh, Ks, Tc ]
Ro_Joe checks.
Stepinfoo checks.
Gilbo125 bets [$3].
Ro_Joe calls [$3].
Stepinfoo is all-In [$13.4]
Gilbo125: wow that was quick
Gilbo125 folds.
Ro_Joe calls [$10.4].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6h ]
** Dealing River ** [ Kd ]
Ro_Joe shows [ Qd, Ah ] a straight, ten to ace.
Stepinfoo shows [ Kh, Th ] a full house, Kings full of tens.
Stepinfoo wins $31.9 from the main pot with a full house, Kings full of tens.

I'm thinking I should have gone all in after seat 5 raised 3, but since I flopped the straight I could raise on the turn. Well it backfired.

[Ro_Joe]

Here are my PT numbers....appreciate any help/comments.

VP$IP - 27.97
W$WSF - 31.11
WTSD% - 23.95
W$SD - 49.40
PFR% - 5.06
13,104 hands

[journey075]

Understand bigred....thanks for the help.

and the bad beats keep happening. Here is a hand from tonight.

Table Table 36951 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: cheapdotcom ( $24.5 )
Seat 2: grooboggle ( $64.2 )
Seat 3: Stepinfoo ( $14.4 )
Seat 4: Imperial_641 ( $18.5 )
Seat 5: Gilbo125 ( $67.15 )
Seat 6: Ro_Joe ( $24.75 )
Ro_Joe posts small blind [$0.1].
cheapdotcom posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Ro_Joe [ Qd Ah ]
grooboggle calls [$0.25].
Stepinfoo calls [$0.25].
Imperial_641 calls [$0.25].
Gilbo125 raises [$1].
Ro_Joe calls [$0.9].
cheapdotcom folds.
grooboggle folds.
Stepinfoo calls [$0.75].
Imperial_641 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jh, Ks, Tc ]
Ro_Joe checks.
Stepinfoo checks.
Gilbo125 bets [$3].
Ro_Joe calls [$3].
Stepinfoo is all-In [$13.4]
Gilbo125: wow that was quick
Gilbo125 folds.
Ro_Joe calls [$10.4].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6h ]
** Dealing River ** [ Kd ]
Ro_Joe shows [ Qd, Ah ] a straight, ten to ace.
Stepinfoo shows [ Kh, Th ] a full house, Kings full of tens.
Stepinfoo wins $31.9 from the main pot with a full house, Kings full of tens.

I'm thinking I should have gone all in after seat 5 raised 3, but since I flopped the straight I could raise on the turn. Well it backfired.

you were an 83.5% favorite against 2pr, consider it like someone going all in with a gutshot and catching. think of it using percentages. although there is a huge chance youre going to win, its still possible you lose.

you played it well though. your check-call shows extreme weakness when you have the nuts on a rainbow flop. you brought out aggression from second best hands and thats EXACTLY what you want. you do NOT want to take down a small pot and you forced them to make errors. in the long run if you force errors like this, you'll be a profitable player. i like the way you played this.

[Ro_Joe]

Thanks for your comments Journey. This hand is typical of the kind of stuff that has been happening for the last two weeks. I realize there's nothing I can do if I play it right. Just very disturbing.

Can you give an assessment of my pokertracker numbers in the message above? Appreciate your feedback.

[bigred]

Honestly Ro Joe. Taling about bad beats is bad poker. Nothing positive will come from it.

Vp looks a little high. It matters what game you're playing. When I'm tight/card camping my vpip is 12-15. When I want to lag it up because my table is tigther than a nun, my vpip is 25-30,

You said you were doing great and are just on a bad run. Bad streaks happen to everyone. I'm in one myself. Keep playing.

[journey075]

hes playing 6max, so maybe thats why his vp is so high. only thing i know about shorthanded play is playing at the final table of a tourney, and trust me, i dont do that enough.

yeah bad beats are life. if players didnt make those horrible plays and catch, then they wouldnt make the horrible plays and not catch....if that makes any sense. they need incentive to play poorly. give them $50 now so that you can win $500 later. thats how i think of it at least. just dont go on tilt and never keep a 'im above this shit' mindset, nothing productive comes of it.

also, dont focus on outcomes that have already happened. i mean you knew what you did was right, dont stress it. most important thing is to never give up in times like this. just the other day i was playing in a casino and bad beat after bad beat came up. lost AA to AK etc. i started with $100 in chips, took it to 350 and was later down to 30. i just persevered and ended at 335. moral of that somewhat off-topic story, dont let bad beats phase you. you should actually want them to happen.

[outphase]

I didn't get a chance to read most of the other stuff, but on hand 3 (AQQAx) I would've laid it down. It took a lot of losses for me to realize if you have the low end of a boat with 2 pair on the board, you're beat most of the time. Like I said... the hard way

[Ro_Joe]

I want to thank all of you guys for your comments. Very helpful. This losing streak is now at about 2 weeks straight. I am seriously feeling the pain. Doesn't seem to matter what I do or what hands I have, they are usually 2nd best. Just enough to be in the hand to lose or worse yet get drawn out on by a river chaser.

At this point I am going to back away for about a week and get my sanity back. Definitely on tilt at this point although I try to tell myself I'm not. But my BR is down by 30% over the last 2 weeks. Time to stop a while.

I realize the loss with the boat was a stupid play now that I look at it and with your comments. Just didn't see it at the time.

You all have been great with your comments/advice. I really appreciate it.