AKo...Automatic laydown to an all in?

[bdawg56kg]

I was playing in a ring game with my friends yesterday (6 person table) and I got AKo in the BB. Blinds are .05/.10. The first thing you must understand is that a "normal" 3-4xBB raise gets close to no respect on the table, so .50 is a typical preflop bet. UTG bets .50 and CO raises 1.00 more. I raise 3.00 more on top of his raise and UTG goes all in for around a dollar more. CO goes all in which is like $12 more to me. I thought about it for a while and folded.

My reads were that UTG is very very loose and often goes all in with a medium to weak ace, so that's what I put him on, so I wasn't worried about him. CO is also very loose but not as loose as UTG. I ruled out AA or KK and put him on JJ or TT. I didn't want to call another $12 on a coinflip with a good chance that one of my outs were in UTG's hand. What do you think of my play here?

**Here are the results. UTG had A8o and CO had 77. What terrible play!!!(lol)

{This post has been removed}

[lolzzz_321]

Hrm...

In a ring game I'd rather wait for the nuts or near nuts.

I don't think you want to "forget the money", just whether or not you are willing to risk your stack on a coinflip.

But in a tournament...

[Admerylous]

It was all good until that last line, ripp. Haha.

[bdawg56kg]

I do realize that AK is a great starting hand but there are situations where it is appropriate to lay it down right? I have lost a lot of money playing AK the wrong way, and because my friends are loose I like to get my money in when I have them dominated or simply out play them postflop, not just put everything on a coinflip. If I were getting badly outplayed postflop, I would have almost instantly pushed preflop with AK, but I felt I could outplay them if it came down to it.

On a side note, this is where my judgement with AK gets a little shady, so please correct me if I'm wrong. When I have AK in a tournament I like to be the one pushing and not particularly calling an all in (unless a short stack goes all in before me, then it's an automatic call). If it's early in the tourney, I don't like to put too much money in preflop (I think I read this from Phil Hellmuth). In the later stages of a tourney, I don't mind calling all ins as much with AK. In a ring game, I look at it sort of like the early stages of a tourney, where blinds are small and there is no real pressure to make a move. So that being said, I like to juice the pot up a good amount preflop but not necessarily put all my chips in (this is in general, but of course it varies given the circumstances). If I hit an Ace or King, I bet real hard and maybe even all in, but if I hit nothing I will bet regardless, and if I'm called or rerasied I'm easily laying it down. So now you know how I treat AK, so do you still think I played the hand too passively/weakly? Rippy?

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[TylerK]

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=741991
pokenum  -h as 8c  - 7s 7c  - ah kd 
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards     win   %win     lose  %lose    tie  %tie     EV
As 8c  247890  18.08  1094639  79.86  28225  2.06  0.191
7s 7c  604272  44.08   763359  55.69   3123  0.23  0.442
Kd Ah  490367  35.77   852162  62.17  28225  2.06  0.368

Good fold. This is not a profitable call.

[r8ed]

The numbers mean less when you have identified a loose player. Rippy is right. You should have a little voice in your head reprimanding you exactly like he did. You should have been salivating, knowing some chump is betting into your power hand. Since he's going all in with $12, that means he's well below the table buy-in limit and is probably desperate to make something out of his Ax hand or is trying to steal the $5 that's in the pot already. If he was a consistently tight player with more cash, you may reconsider.

I'm not an expert, but I'm starting to take all factors in to consideration more frequently and it's paying off. The people on this board have helped greatly with my decision making.

[koolmoe]

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=741991
pokenum  -h as 8c  - 7s 7c  - ah kd 
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards     win   %win     lose  %lose    tie  %tie     EV
As 8c  247890  18.08  1094639  79.86  28225  2.06  0.191
7s 7c  604272  44.08   763359  55.69   3123  0.23  0.442
Kd Ah  490367  35.77   852162  62.17  28225  2.06  0.368

Good fold. This is not a profitable call.

You need to consider the stack sizes. If all three had the same stack size, it would indeed be a profitable call. Since A8 had the smallest stack, it probably was -EV. If A8 had the biggest stack, it would have been +EV.

[jmrogers7]

Rippy, have you been reading the 2+2 boards again? Ease up on the poor guy!

bdawg - Not a terrible laydown here at all. 3-way all-ins aren't something you want to be involved in if you can help it even with a good starting hand like AK.

CO accomplished what he set out to do (if he has a clue). He isolated UTG with what he probably thought was the best hand and scared off any other face cards from the pot with that large raise.

[Zangief]

A similar decision was presented to me playing $1/$2 NL at Foxwoods last night.

I was one of the larger stacks with about $400. I got AQo and raised to $10 from middle position (we were short-handed at this point). A tight player with a short stack ($65?) to my left raised to $20. A guy on the end raised all-in for about $80.

My read was that he was making a move, that he didn't have a very strong hand. But the tight player to my left did have a hand, so I folded.

Turns out the tight player had JJ and the other guy had ATs.

I was kicking myself when a Q fell on the flop. But I'm not sure if I would make this call, given the decision again. Maybe if it was suited?

[TylerK]

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=741991
pokenum  -h as 8c  - 7s 7c  - ah kd 
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards     win   %win     lose  %lose    tie  %tie     EV
As 8c  247890  18.08  1094639  79.86  28225  2.06  0.191
7s 7c  604272  44.08   763359  55.69   3123  0.23  0.442
Kd Ah  490367  35.77   852162  62.17  28225  2.06  0.368

Good fold. This is not a profitable call.

You need to consider the stack sizes. If all three had the same stack size, it would indeed be a profitable call. Since A8 had the smallest stack, it probably was -EV. If A8 had the biggest stack, it would have been +EV.

I did, I based my post on the bets and stack sizes specified in the original post. Sorry, I should have been clearer on this. If UTG (A8) has the other guys covered, you are right, this is a call.

[jmrogers7]

A similar decision was presented to me playing $1/$2 NL at Foxwoods last night.

I was one of the larger stacks with about $400. I got AQo and raised to $10 from middle position (we were short-handed at this point). A tight player with a short stack ($65?) to my left raised to $20. A guy on the end raised all-in for about $80.

My read was that he was making a move, that he didn't have a very strong hand. But the tight player to my left did have a hand, so I folded.

Turns out the tight player had JJ and the other guy had ATs.

I was kicking myself when a Q fell on the flop. But I'm not sure if I would make this call, given the decision again. Maybe if it was suited?

Tough break. However, take solace in the fact that you made the correct reads. Looks lik eyou have a handle on a very important aspect of live play and it will serve you well.

[SteveO]

Not a bad laydown under the circumstances. I never like calling AI w/ AK. I prefer to be the first one to put the money in and force them into a decision. And I especially hate being the 3d AI. Your solid reraise broadcast that you had a solid hand and yet you still had an AI and a call in front of you. You never want to be in that scenario with AK in a cash game because you are usually beat or flipping a coin. If you knew they were loose I might make the call for 12 bucks b/c you don't put either of them on the AA or KK and you were right. Would your hand have improved after all the cards were out?

[bdawg56kg]

Well I would've won. The board was K44-7-K so I would've had kings full and CO would've had 7's full. Oh well, tough break. But on another side note, I think calling CO's raise would not have been a bad decision at all, just to see what the flop brings. I would've floped TPTK, and there's a good chance that CO would've folded to any substantial raise here, and I would've won the pot, obviously which would've been smaller, but with less risk. Hmmm...

[TylerK]

But on another side note, I think calling CO's raise would not have been a bad decision at all, just to see what the flop brings. I would've floped TPTK, and there's a good chance that CO would've folded to any substantial raise here, and I would've won the pot, obviously which would've been smaller, but with less risk. Hmmm...

This would have been the better preflop play.

[Ayce]

The largest part of the strength of AK is in post flop play. In an all-in situation 22 is a favourite to win over AK. This is why you will see AK all-ins being cracked by pocket pairs all the time in tournaments. It's not a bad beat the pp is the favourite every time.

In a coin flip situation I like the coin to weighted in my favour.

[johnnyawe]

Well just keep in mind that theoretically if you are ever in a situation like that in a cash game and you know you will be at least a coin flip, then it is correct to call because of the money already in the pot. You will win only half the time, but you will get more than that $12 back every time you win, you'll get the $12 plus the $5 or whatever in the pot before the big raise. This makes +EV to call if you KNOW you are a coin flip.

But because this was a multiway pot, you were much less than 50% to win, and therefore this is probably a good fold.