First hand of a SnG. Good call?

[Wet_DreaMer]

First hand, blinds 5-10 no antes, UB $5 SnG

Dealt Q7o in MP1.

UTG calls, UTG1 folds, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO-1 folds, CO raises 10 all other players back to me call.
MP2 raises to 300. CO calls, its folded back to me.

What hand do you put MP2 and CO on at this point?

Anyway I call creating a pot of just over 1000 with 3 players.

Flop: 994 rainbow

I check, MP2 pushes all in for another 700.
CO thinks for a while and then folds.
I call.

Correct move? Thoughts? Comments? Results posted soon.

[Corey]

First of all preflop you should have folded that shit long ago.

You call with queen high?


dude i seriosly hope u had an early read on him if not bad call all around

[a500lbgorilla]

Did you mean Q9o?

God I hope you meant Q9o.

-'rilla

[Wet_DreaMer]

Nope, Q7o

And try evaluating it postflop rather than preflop.

What do you put MP2 on?

[a500lbgorilla]

I'm not sure I understand what's going on here.

You call an AI early in a SnG with Q7o?

He raised hard preflop and put it all in on the flop. He could have AKs, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, 99 (eh). A shit load of hands that beat you and none that don't.,

You can't seriously tell me this was a good play preflop or post flop.

Maybe the worst I've ever seen someone take credit for.

-'rilla

[rob6597]

What do you put MP2 on?

Your chips.

[a500lbgorilla]

Oh, you're curious becuase he limp re-raised but limped behind other players originally?

Still a horrible call by you at every step of the hand.

-'rilla

[Wet_DreaMer]

Preflop he has limped, I could take this to mean he has a low suited connector, or any range of hands without a Q.

When he re raises he is trying to buy the pot, and then when he pushes all in on the flop it is an obvious bluff right? I figure my Q high is probably good enough.


Results: He flips over 35o and I take a huge pot and 1st place.

[a500lbgorilla]

When he limps, he's limping to set with pocket 55. When it's raised in late position a small ammount, he figures no one else has a pair and decides to take it down right there (already a sizeable pot). Post flop, he pushes becuase no Ks or Aces fell and any decent pair would have raised preflop instead of limping.

And you call chasing, what you hope are, 6 outs.

-'rilla

[Wet_DreaMer]

35, not 55...... he missed the flop, neither of us had anything and I high carded him.

[a500lbgorilla]

I know he had 35.

Read my reasoning.

He could have easily had 55.

-'rilla

[bigred]

I'll trade you a bulbasuar and a snorlax for a pikachu and a charizard.

[TylerK]

[JeffreyGB]

Make a note on whoever this guy was, because he played like crap. Yes, you should have folded that preflop. Yes, you should have folded that to the bet on the flop. Yes, you got lucky that the other guy was an idiot and hopefully made a profit off it in the end. Can you expect that to always be the case? No - not to this level especially.

- Jeffrey

[lolzzz_321]

Correct Move?
An emphatic No

Thoughts?
Did you think you were ahead?

Comments?
Did Ash Ketchum start feeding you pokemon food laced with lead? Or did you get a read off of MP2 because Alakazam was playing with you.

Alakazam=The Best Bot EVER!

Enough with the sarcastic comments gents, we're here to give advice, not to take the mickey.

Q7o is a trash hand, it should always be folded preflop without a second thought.

If you need help on what are playable hands and what aren't check out Tyson's starting hand groupings.

[Wet_DreaMer]

Make a note on whoever this guy was, because he played like crap. Yes, you should have folded that preflop. Yes, you should have folded that to the bet on the flop. Yes, you got lucky that the other guy was an idiot and hopefully made a profit off it in the end. Can you expect that to always be the case? No - not to this level especially.

- Jeffrey

Why exactly did he play it like crap? Care to elaborate?

(Im guessing most people have worked out the real point behind this post by now =P )

[JeffreyGB]

Make a note on whoever this guy was, because he played like crap. Yes, you should have folded that preflop. Yes, you should have folded that to the bet on the flop. Yes, you got lucky that the other guy was an idiot and hopefully made a profit off it in the end. Can you expect that to always be the case? No - not to this level especially.

- Jeffrey

Why exactly did he play it like crap? Care to elaborate?

(Im guessing most people have worked out the real point behind this post by now =P )

Because 35o is about as much a garbage hand as Q7o. He also should have folded preflop. With the straight possibility, his play could almost be conceivably understandable (again, talking about preflop) if it was a huge pot that he'd win and he had Rippy-level skillz (clearly not the case). Still, on that flop this was a horrid play. You'll hear a lot that the best play is to raise rather than to call because then you can win through having the best hand or through getting your opponent to fold. With 35o on that flop, there were only a handful of hands that he could have beat - basically only 32. So his only chance of winning was to make someone fold. That's rarely the situation you want to be in without a read on your opponents.

'rilla was talking about what this guy could have (should have) had to be playing the way he was; conversely given the hands that you could have and should have had to be playing the way you were, this guy's play was horrendous. What if you had Q9o (a moderately playable hand, probably good enough to call that pf raise if you'd already limped in)? You'd have him badly beaten. Any pocket pair beats him. Any high cards obviously beat him, though here the high cards would probably not think they necessarily had him beat. If he gave any thought to your cards at all, I'm sure he figured you for high cards. In any case, I'd half expect CO had both of you beat the whole time.

As for reasons to note this guy: he played like this on the first hand of a tournament. Unless the tournament's a rebuy, there's nothing to gain from getting yourself kicked out that early. And I'd almost guarrantee that he'll continue to make these plays, meaning that just about any time you see him in a tourney, you should be able to make money off him.

- Jeffrey

[Yeldud]

You both played it horribly and you just got lucky with the Q high.

That early in a tourney, it is not worth calling, never mind raising or calling a raise with Q7o.

What exactly made you call?

[iwa]

Double post, naw mean? My post is meant as constructive criticism. Please note this.

[iwa]

dude i seriosly hope u had an early read on him if not bad call all around

Forget that, I hope you knew what 2 cards he was holding, as well as the turn and the river. Q7o.... Take dwarfs advice on the starting hands. Why were you willing to give him all your chips this early on in the tourney especially when at this point you were on a small edge at best, I dont think the MP2 reraise was a steal attempt at all and if you think it was, how do you know? The blinds are still at 5-10, I think he would be reraising with a premium hand. There are all kinds of people limping with kk and aa (not that I ever would, but some people do). You will lose this hand 9999999 out of 10000000... Overall - easy fold when the original 10$ blind hits you, easy fold when 10$ reraise hits you, easy fold when 300$ re-reraise hits you, easy fold when he goes allin. Next time, choose one of these easy folds, and make them.... hopefully it will be the first fold.[/quote]

[soupie]

I cant believe this thead got 20+ posts.

Serious discussion of whether to call an allin on the flop with q high because you might have him out kicked.

ROFLOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL LLLLLL

[Wet_DreaMer]

Serious discussion of whether to call an allin on the flop with q high because you might have him out kicked.

I think it musta been the poll soupie.

Anyway, Ill explain more later.... but I was MP2. I honestly think this is the worst call down I have ever seen at the $5 level.

[JeffreyGB]

I stand behind what I said about it being a bad play. People are used to maniac's bluffing with nothing in the beginning of a tournament. Unless you have something, I'd consider it one of the worst times to push as a bluff just because of the number of idiots that will call you or the number of people that will call thinking you're an idiot.

Should the guy with Q7 have folded? Yes. Would your play have been correct if that were the case? No, I don't think so. Why not wait for a hand that has at least some marginal advantage? You want to be able to beat at least some of the hands he could have, even if you're bluffing. For instance, let's use Rippy's all-in rebuy strat as an example: Go all in on any hand that adds up to 12 or more. Here you have the possibility of an advantage when the flop comes. For low cards to fit, they have to be accompanied by a high card. For medium cards, they have to have a high card with them or a connector.

Basically, with no reads on your opponents, a bluff with a hand that has no chance of winning is a bad idea. Besides, you'll make a lot more off of these types of moves if you wait 'til people read you as a tight player and there's more chips at stake (later in the tournament when blinds are much higher).

- Jeffrey

[zenbitz]

So, you tried to limp-reraise with 53 over 90 chips? Then played when the flop missed you?

The problem with your limp re-raise blind steal, is that with SO MANY people already partially in the pot, at least one, if not more are going to call. If one guy calls, yeah, he probably missed that flop too - but it's a $5 SNG! And the first hand! Who knows what bizzare things they might do!

If you really MUST have these bets, at least limp-reraise all in.

[Penneywize]

Sorry dude I wouldn't play anything less than, say AJ or AT that early in an SNG, in that position. You're just asking for trouble. I can't fathom hanging on to Q7o after a very unfavourable flop and two pre-flop raises. Even if the turn and river came up QQ, it wouldn't justify that kind of crappy play.

EDIT:

Ok I should've read the rest of the thread, anyhow, what did you really think you had to gain by outright bluffing on the first hand of an SnG? Save bluffing with crap like 53o for later on in the tourney when the blinds are 100/200 and there are 5 players left at the table..

[Penneywize]

For instance, let's use Rippy's all-in rebuy strat as an example: Go all in on any hand that adds up to 12 or more.

Dude check the topic title again :P this happened in an SnG, not a rebuy MTT hehe

[JeffreyGB]

For instance, let's use Rippy's all-in rebuy strat as an example: Go all in on any hand that adds up to 12 or more.

Dude check the topic title again :P this happened in an SnG, not a rebuy MTT hehe

That's exactly my point. By most accounts, Rippy's rebuy MTT strategy is the most aggressive/bluff style strategy that anyone could hope to have work, and even there (where rebuy's were possible) he wouldn't try this. Thus doing it in an SnG is absurd.

- Jeffrey

[aokrongly]

...

[Sed]

but I was MP2. I honestly think this is the worst call down I have ever seen at the $5 level.

Suuuuuuuurrreeeeeee.... I believe that...

- sed

[Wet_DreaMer]

He could have easily had 55.

-'rilla

Ok so the whole story now I guess. =/

I have been reading quite a few articles lately about the play early in a SnG. Basically I just dont believe the "Tight is Right" philosophy any more.

Dont get me wrong. I know TIR will overall win you a lot more than it loses, but I feel this is similar to guys that go out and read Ken Warren then sit at a fish table and play their hands with +ev. Sure they will most likely be winning in the long run. But nowhere near as much as they could be if they had the experience to read players, bluff where appropriate, calculate pot odds on the spot etc.

Basically what Im saying is that sure TIR is profitable. Its consistent.
But is it the MOST profitable way to start a SnG?

Try watching a $100 SnG sometime. These are generally top players, and none of them use TIR. They are aggressive from the start, trying to find opponents weaknesses and exploit them. They create pots to be won rather than waiting for the blinds to gain value.


Anyway, on to the hand in question.

35o, definitely a speculative hand. Low possibility of hitting a straight, and as a hand, not much else.
However, if I dont show it down, why does it ever matter what I have?

Limped after three limpers, a min raise from CO and it comes back to me. At this point there is 110 chips in the pot. ONE HUNDRED AND TEN chips on the first hand in which noone has shown any preflop strength whatsoever.

So I tried to steal it. Figured I could rep a pocket pair limp then isolate rather than aiming for the set. 300 chips should do the trick?

I get one call (still showing weakness, AJs perhaps?) then another call earlier around the table (most likely another spec by a fish? J10s? 89?)

The board comes down beautifully for me 499.

The first player in the hand checks, I still figure another pp would have pushed back at me preflop meaning the CO has A hi, so I rep my lpp to its death and push all in.

CO folds as expected, then I see the first player call.
Ack no I think, expecting 89, 910, 44 or even 99 to be turned over, when instead I see Q7o.

I mean really, wtf?


Was it really that bad a play? Is TIR the optimum way to start a tourney? Thoughts? Comments? 20 more responses?

haha :roll:

[soupie]

Wet dreamer,

Ok here's the point and i am not going to spend a lot of time typing. Exactly why is it important to gamble early in a tourney when you can patiently wait to see 30 or 40 hands and potentially get to gamble with premium hands with little risk to your stack.

I suppose you are goint to say with double the chips i can put the hammer down and build my stack really big by intimidating the whole table.

There is value to a big stack no doubt, but not near as much as you think. Early chip leaders mostly crash and burn as they think they continue to buy everything in site by pushing people around with 35 or some other nonsense.

There is a real art to playing trash profitably, and most newer players are just gonna get burned badly with these early plays. I just dont have time to properly explain how to play trash, but you have to pick your targets, they have to be tight, you never commit your whole stack, just a little bit, and show it down when you win to make sure you get action on your big hands.

Soupie

[rorix]

The skill in single table tournements is not winning AK vs 44 with 3 players left. That's not a skill. The skill is getting to the situation where you CAN coinflip.


You can't win the tournement when there's 9 players left. You can't win the tournement when there's 5 players left. Or 3. But you sure can loose it.

[Sed]

Wet Dreamer...

I wouldn't waste this type of play/thinking on the 5$ SnGs most guys playing there don't have enough of a clue not to call you down. Wait till you get to a 50$ level they might catch on.

- sed

[Penneywize]

For instance, let's use Rippy's all-in rebuy strat as an example: Go all in on any hand that adds up to 12 or more.

Dude check the topic title again :P this happened in an SnG, not a rebuy MTT hehe

That's exactly my point. By most accounts, Rippy's rebuy MTT strategy is the most aggressive/bluff style strategy that anyone could hope to have work, and even there (where rebuy's were possible) he wouldn't try this. Thus doing it in an SnG is absurd.

- Jeffrey

Sorry bout that I guess I misread / misinterpreted your post..

[GramiHiaus]

Basically what Im saying is that sure TIR is profitable. Its consistent.
But is it the MOST profitable way to start a SnG?

Try watching a $100 SnG sometime. These are generally top players, and none of them use TIR. They are aggressive from the start, trying to find opponents weaknesses and exploit them. They create pots to be won rather than waiting for the blinds to gain value.

I was randomly browsing around and saw this. I play the $100's on empire daily (check the tournament masters board), and I have to say that you're completely wrong.

First off, proper $5 strategy is very different than proper $100 strategy. Regardless, at either level, your play is awful. Plays like that are what make these things so profitable. I suggest you listen to the other posters and see their logic, as you have much to learn. I think soupie summed it up pretty well for you.

Read up more on hand values. 35o is NOT a speculative hand - it is complete and utter trash. 78s is a speculative hand. As to the correct play of these, I will not comment here.

I'm not even sure why I'm writing this, because I doubt you'll listen. Take it or leave it as you like.

[Wet_DreaMer]

Basically what Im saying is that sure TIR is profitable. Its consistent.
But is it the MOST profitable way to start a SnG?

Try watching a $100 SnG sometime. These are generally top players, and none of them use TIR. They are aggressive from the start, trying to find opponents weaknesses and exploit them. They create pots to be won rather than waiting for the blinds to gain value.

I was randomly browsing around and saw this. I play the $100's on empire daily (check the tournament masters board), and I have to say that you're completely wrong.

First off, proper $5 strategy is very different than proper $100 strategy. Regardless, at either level, your play is awful. Plays like that are what make these things so profitable. I suggest you listen to the other posters and see their logic, as you have much to learn. I think soupie summed it up pretty well for you.

Read up more on hand values. 35o is NOT a speculative hand - it is complete and utter trash. 78s is a speculative hand. As to the correct play of these, I will not comment here.

I'm not even sure why I'm writing this, because I doubt you'll listen. Take it or leave it as you like.

Ok a couple of things. First off, Im not wrong. :P

Im writing based on my experiences at UB, and am bringing up a point of discussion. Im not stating anything as fact.

Secondly, just so you get my play in perspective I have ITM %56 at $5 and $10 levels, with ROI about 60%
Im just trying to improve my game.

Finally, why do you 'doubt ill listen'? Why would I even post this if I wasnt looking for advice? If you felt like giving me any I would more than likely listen indeed.

[a500lbgorilla]

"something about top 100 players don't play tight, they play aggro"

Uh, lets see. Your actions in this hand: call, call, call.

Yah, you're playing aggro and not passively.

At higher levels, you can give opponents some credit and out play.

You just called down.

More to come with sobriety.

-'rilla

[a500lbgorilla]

Basically what Im saying is that sure TIR is profitable. Its consistent.
But is it the MOST profitable way to start a SnG?

Try watching a $100 SnG sometime. These are generally top players, and none of them use TIR. They are aggressive from the start, trying to find opponents weaknesses and exploit them. They create pots to be won rather than waiting for the blinds to gain value.

I was randomly browsing around and saw this. I play the $100's on empire daily (check the tournament masters board), and I have to say that you're completely wrong.

First off, proper $5 strategy is very different than proper $100 strategy. Regardless, at either level, your play is awful. Plays like that are what make these things so profitable. I suggest you listen to the other posters and see their logic, as you have much to learn. I think soupie summed it up pretty well for you.

Read up more on hand values. 35o is NOT a speculative hand - it is complete and utter trash. 78s is a speculative hand. As to the correct play of these, I will not comment here.

I'm not even sure why I'm writing this, because I doubt you'll listen. Take it or leave it as you like.

Woo, number 4 on the tourny masters page.

I'm so hot for you right now.

-'rilla

[JeffreyGB]

"something about top 100 players don't play tight, they play aggro"

Uh, lets see. Your actions in this hand: call, call, call.
...
-'rilla

Umm, 'rilla? He was posting that so that he'd hear us say the other guy played bad. He was the one raising and going all-in with 35o. That's definitely aggressive, whether or not you like the play.

- Jeffrey

[a500lbgorilla]

OH!

"something about getting sober"

Maybe I'll understand your masterplan trickery tommorrow when stuff makes sense and isn't always hilarious.

-'rilla

[Penneywize]

My god I can't believe this thread is still alive.. Die!.... DIE I SAY!

<hypocritcally presses 'Submit' thus bumping the thread>