This is collusion, right?

[LeFou]

I'm not all that bothered 'cause it was an APL (free) tourney. But damn, in my opinion it's cut and dried and if I were an annoying puck I would get tourney director over and kill the hand etc.

I start second hour of play w/only 9 BB, and the button, and AJo. I raise to 3 BB and get call from SB and LP1.

Flop is all babies, checked to me and I go all in. SB sighs, says something like "of course!". Before her action, LP starts fiddling with his chips. SB looks at him with curiousity.

SB: You calling?
LP: I'll call if you call.
SB: For real?
LP: Sure.
SB: Okay.

They both call.

I'm the button, so I'm dealing. This is such a breach that I freeze, and look at them with my best WTF face. But they look back with these "What?!!?" faces. Like "Deal it out, man, we're trying to play some poker here!" I say something about one player to a hand, about them coming to an agreement w/r/t their action, and it's like I'm talking to the air. Like I'm just trying to spoil their fun.

?!?!??!!

(LP took it)

[Penneywize]

No that isn't technically collusion.. Collusion is two players sharing information on their hands (as far as I know) and using it to their advantage- saving bets, raise-folds, etc.

I think that's just poor poker etiquette but yeah the hand should have been killed. Talking to another player about their action is only OK if you're the last two left in the hand. Like telling someone 'if you bet all-in I'll call' or something.

[FlyingSaucy]

It's not explicit collusion because it wasnt done in secret - they did it right out in the open. lol. But if it was pit boss I'd give the prelop pot to you and tell them to either shut up or not come next time. Then again it sounds like they are just idiots who didn't know that what they are doing is technically unethical.

They were just like "oh hell, now what?" and had some table talk. They probably picked up on each others hesitation and felt that they could relate to each other when trying to make a tough call. It doesnt sound like they were cheating bastards, maybe cheating morons, but not cheating bastards.

[TylerK]

I'd wait to see if I won the pot, and then if not, throw the red flag and call a floor person.

[LeFou]

No that isn't technically collusion.. Collusion is two players sharing information on their hands (as far as I know)

I disagree with your def. Collusion is two players coordinating their actions -- with or without talking about their holdings. Like that guy in cardplayer magazine says. If my buddy and I agree to raise/reraise preflop, then check it down when it's just us two we're getting a whole different set of odds than the other players.

Like in this example, SB was hesitant, maybe on a straight draw, and LP's agreement with her made the odds better than 3 to 1, 'cause she could consider his chips part of her potential pot.

[Penneywize]

I disagree with your def. Collusion is two players coordinating their actions -- with or without talking about their holdings. Like that guy in cardplayer magazine says. If my buddy and I agree to raise/reraise preflop, then check it down when it's just us two we're getting a whole different set of odds than the other players.

Yeah you're right, collusion is more broad than what I specified. You get the point though.

[whileone]

Collusion is two players coordinating their actions -- with or without talking about their holdings.

by that rule, wouldn't a chop be collusion?

i agree that it is unethical, BUT, i think the agreement has to be secret to be collusion. yes the other folks didn't get to take advantage of the great implied odds. not having position sucks. Worth killing the hand? sure, breach of ethics, but minor and innocent. not secret, not collusion.

just my 2c

[zenbitz]

Yeah, but a chop is with consent of ALL players.

Probably the definition of collusion has to include "with the intent to screw the non-colluding players"

In Le Fou's case... it's pretty damn irregular, but you gotta be lax about a no money game.

[whileone]

A chop is with consent of all players who still have an interest in the outcome. If I bust out in 1259th place, I don't get to interfere with people who still have chips.

I don’t know the rules. My naive assumption is that collusion *MUST* be secret. But that comes from a google search. Everybody that gives some sort of definition uses the word ‘secret’ I suppose APL may have a definition that doesn’t include secret, but I don’t know.

My gut says what they did was wrong but my head can’t name the rule that they broke.

[LeFou]

The rule broken is that the players at table must act as individuals, not in pairs or teams. "One player to a hand"

[eeeee]

LP starts fiddling with his chips. ... (LP took it)

Could LP have a tell that he had a good hand?

LP: I'll call if you call.
SB: For real?
LP: Sure.
SB: Okay.

They both call.

And wanted to keep SB in the pot? Too shrewd by far.

[AllinLife]

collusion!

[koolmoe]

It is most assuredly collusion.

Yeah this is defo collusion, but perhaps they are new to the game and aren't sure what is right and wrong?

If this is the case, I'd politely ask them not to do it again, and let it go.

[LeFou]

LP starts fiddling with his chips. ... (LP took it)

Could LP have a tell that he had a good hand?.

Maybe; my instinct tells me no, he's not all that clever. He had nines -- an overpair to a baby board. His fiddling looking like "I don't wanna call this but I might anyway"

BTW F*** people who don't raise w/nines in LP.

[TheDoc]

Thats happened in a live game that I play. A kid almost beat the shit out of another for asking that, and it was a cash game. If I was in a tournament I would punch both of those cunts in the face. If they want to call on their own and check it down with out saying a word fine go ahead, don't be a cunt about it and say it right in front of me that will get you killed (well not really, but in some games it would).

[TheDoc]

Oh ya I forgot to add, that is collusion and you would get thrown out of a casino for that if caught by a pit boss/floor manager.

[Ayce]

Sure it's collusion but in a free tourney is it worth the hassle?

The interesting thing is that good players will almost automatically both call in this situation and then check it down. However, that's implicit collusion and a known part of tournament strategy.