Call or fold?

[TylerK]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (9 handed) converter

MP1 (t16593)
Hero (t12915)
MP3 (t8527)
CO (t27658)
Button (t33554)
SB (t26659)
BB (t12525)
UTG (t19487)
UTG+1 (t14415)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J, J.
3 folds, Hero raises to t1600, 4 folds, BB raises to t12500, Hero calls t10900.

Flop: (t25175) 9, 7, A (2 players)

Turn: (t25175) Q (2 players)

River: (t25175) 6 (2 players)

Final Pot: t25175

[UG]

This is a tough one. Depends on your read. How's he played so far, has he done this before, etc...Depends on how many people are left in the tournament, too. Are you on the bubble, near the big money, etc? You're not pot committed by any means here, so you can lay it down if you want to...

What do I do, not knowing any of the above information? I probably push. If he was on AA or KK I don't think he would have reraised you out of the gym with it, he would have put in a solid raise wanting YOU to push so he could call. He might be on QQ, but again, I don't think he would have raised so hard...

Sounds to me like the guy is probably on 88, 99, or TT. Or maybe something cute like AK/AQ.

So what happened?

[a500lbgorilla]

Fold, you don't need chips.

-'rilla

[UG]

Fold, you don't need chips.

-'rilla

Heh. I say push.

Maybe that's why my ass has been busting out of MTTs lately? HMMM, GOLLY-GEE I WONDER-WONDER, haha.

You're so right, 'rilla.

You either hit it big or you bust. No need to bust in this situation, although that's probably the route I'd take, LOL.

[ilikeaces86]

Easy Fold

[TylerK]

Fold, you don't need chips.

-'rilla

You always need chips in a tournament. Care to expand upon that?

[HeavyP]

What he means is, you don't need THOSE chips right THEN. Blinds are so small that you don't have to call 12k with a hand preflop. Especially a vulnerable one like JJ. Sure JJ is powerful but (going off of no reads) I can't see any hands he pushes that you have dominated. So if you're willing to put that much money into a coinflip or you being dominated situation then go ahead.

Again, everything I say is based off of no reads, obviously reads and table texture have more to do with the call then just the money. But if I sat down to take over your tournament and that hand happened I would have folded.

[a500lbgorilla]

Always chasing every edge in a toury leads to high variance.

You figure to be in a flip or dominated for a huge HUGE pot.

Folding, you're still way ahead of the blinds and you don't need to force anything.

The only way you can lose a tourny is by going AI. Fold here and you're still way ahead of the blinds and you've got plenty opportunity to push with AA and get someone else to gamble with JJ.

-'rilla

[TylerK]

In my opinion there are several hands that will pull this that I am slightly ahead of, a couple that I am way ahead of, and exactly one that I am way behind. That being the case, I don't think this is foldable.

Here's an interesting discussion about survival vs. accumulation, and whether it's a good idea to pass up small edges in a tournament:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...5&o=14&fpart=1

[HeavyP]

I count 4 hands that this move will be made with that you aren't dominated by: AKs AKo AQs AQo. AA KK QQ all probably do the same thing. I doubt anyone would do that with AJ or KQ or TT. Therefore I believe you are a bigdog comin' into the flop. I also sit on my hands, you've done a great job of accumulating chips so far, losing 1600 isn't going to break your tourney.

[TylerK]

There's no way on the planet AA or KK makes this move.

I also think TT is a LOT more likely to do this than any of the hands you mentioned.

[HeavyP]

Well that has to be where reads come into play. Also, my other statement stands. you've done a great job of accumulating chips, no reason to risk it on a hand that could be very vulnerable.

[michael1123]

It kind of depends on the type of game it is as well, especially if you don't have a read on the specific player. I use to see overbets like this a lot more often with midpocket pairs (88-JJ), but now I see it more from AK out of position.

If I had to pick a hand to put him on here, without a read, I'd say AK. So then it comes down to if it would be more profitable for you to throw your entire stack in on a probable coinflip, or if you'd be more likely to do better by playing it out. With how small the blinds are compared to the all in, there's very little dead money in the pot that'd make the call make much more profitable with higher blinds, even with the exact same read.

[TylerK]

It kind of depends on the type of game it is as well, especially if you don't have a read on the specific player. I use to see overbets like this a lot more often with midpocket pairs (88-JJ), but now I see it more from AK out of position.

If I had to pick a hand to put him on here, without a read, I'd say AK. So then it comes down to if it would be more profitable for you to throw your entire stack in on a probable coinflip, or if you'd be more likely to do better by playing it out. With how small the blinds are compared to the all in, there's very little dead money in the pot that'd make the call make much more profitable with higher blinds, even with the exact same read.

My thinking was similar. In fact, the range I put him on was 88-QQ, AK, or AQ. Based on that range, I made the call.

[Joke]

And he was camping on pocket .. 2s? 8-)

[TylerK]

He actually had AQ, so I feel pretty comfortable with my read. I obviously would have preferred that he have TT.

[zenbitz]

Apparently, the correct move with KK or AA in his position is to push it, since you won't respect the all-in and will call him thinking he has 88.

[iwa]

Good point from zenbitz... I overbet a pot with a strong hand in a tourney the other day to make it seem like I had a weaker hand and was just trying to take the opponent out of the pot. It ended up working quite well. Personally, I would think you're toss-up gambling at best in this hand.

[TylerK]

Apparently, the correct move with KK or AA in his position is to push it, since you won't respect the all-in and will call him thinking he has 88.

Sure, if you want to credit your opponent with that many levels of thinking.

[Laeelin]

What does "t25175" stand for?

I'm assumeing it's talking about the amount in the pot, but i have not idea beyond that.

Thanks

(please excuse the newbie question)

[rob6597]

What does "t25175" stand for?

I'm assumeing it's talking about the amount in the pot, but i have not idea beyond that.

Thanks

(please excuse the newbie question)

The T just means it's tournament dollars, not real dollars.