Ancient Question, KK vs. AA before flop

[JCooper]

I can't get my head around this problem. Should I just accept the fact that sometimes my KK will be up against an AA preflop and that I will have to lose? Is there anyone that can fold this online? If so, how long do you feel you need to be at the table with someone before you can do this?

Tonight it was maybe the 7th hand when this came up. 3xBB raise in 2 positions in front of me - I'm on the button. I shove another 6xBB in, get another caller, than the first raiser doubles my raise (early in SNG, so we are only talking about maybe 500 chips here). I push the rest of my stack (I had won an early hand so I was in the lead by 500 chips, maybe he had 1100 by this time) - the other caller (total wank) folds, and raiser calls with AA against my KK. I have to say, I had a strong feeling I might have been beaten but I couldn't give serious consideration to folding this, and I still think pushing was the only thing given what I could really know.

[|~|ypermegachi]

yes, just accept it.

never fold KK preflop.

[Laeelin]

If you don't lose all your money there, you played it wrong.

[dalai007]

One time i almost layed down a kk and my hunch was right i was up against aa and lost. However I have also never layed down kk against qq jj 10 10. Never lay down KK. The few times you are beat are more than compensated for by the times when you are a big favorite.

[UncleBuddy]

[quote="dalai007"] Never lay down KK. [quote]

Never?

[ilikeaces86]

Never say Never

[dalai007]

so give me a preflop scenario where u are going to lay down kk

[Laeelin]

last table in a tournament.

Everyone has the same amount of chips.

1) $10,000
2) $5,000
3) $2.000


Your BB.

UTG goes all in
UTG+1 goes all in
All in
All in
All in
All in
All in
All in
All in
You Fold KK.

You asked for a scenario that would have you laying down KK, not for a reasonable one =P

[ilikeaces86]

Id call in that situiation

[ilikeaces86]

Ive only met one player in my entire life I would lay KK to preflop

[Laeelin]

Id call in that situiation

You CAN call, but it wouldnt be a smart move.

99.9% guarentee to be #2 in the top 2, or a ~20% chance of being in #1 in the top 2(and 80% chance of being out).

I know which one I would chose.

[AllinLife]

Id call in that situiation

You CAN call, but it wouldnt be a smart move.

99.9% guarentee to be #2 in the top 2, or a ~20% chance of being in #1 in the top 2(and 80% chance of being out).

I know which one I would chose.

this is pretty clear fold.. anyways

you can start to fold KK preflop when you play at least 100bb buyin games at stakes where people know what they are doing. too often in low stakes NL, you see this kind of min rerereraise with 88~AA, AT~AK to lay down KK preflop.

[aokrongly]

The great Dan Harrington says the following:

The only thing you should call a preflop raise and reraise with is AA. (period) If you raise big and get reraised, fold. If there's a raise and a reraise in front of you, fold. If someone raise, you reraise him and get raised back, fold.

50% or more of the time you skip this rule with KK, QQ, AK you'll find yourself out of the tournament. Sometimes you'll be playing a fool and he'll have JJ or QQ against your KK. But, Dan knows and he's very clear on what he would do.

I would say, the exception might be if you have alot more chips than the other guy, against small stacks, etc. There are situations where your KK is probably best. But against a similar stack or larger, drop em if the hand has been raised strongly and reraised strongly.

[HeavyP]

I've only folded KK twice (preflop), and both times I was correct. It's usually if a TP reraises a bet in MP and you can tell that someone is begging for a call.

[Usuyami]

***** Hand History for Game 1660667927 *****
NL Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:9965357 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Monday, February 28, 00:51:15 EDT 2005
Table Table 12377 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: VTownRida ( $955 )
Seat 5: ynotk ( $1015 )
Seat 6: Ranimal100 ( $985 )
Seat 7: Pokherbut ( $975 )
Seat 8: allinu11 ( $970 )
Seat 10: TwoNine29 ( $1075 )
Seat 2: XiaoWu ( $1000 )
Seat 4: travschmaltz ( $2100 )
Seat 9: drumcd ( $925 )
Trny:9965357 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to XiaoWu [ Ks Kd ]
XiaoWu raises [60].
travschmaltz raises [150].
ynotk folds.
Ranimal100 folds.
Pokherbut folds.
allinu11 folds.
drumcd calls [150].
TwoNine29 is all-In [1065]
VTownRida is all-In [940]
XiaoWu is all-In [940]
VTownRida: ya
XiaoWu: wow
XiaoWu: everyone AI
XiaoWu: cool
allinu11: wtf
XiaoWu: hahaha
travschmaltz calls [925].
drumcd is all-In [775]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Kc, 3c, 6s ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5d ]
** Dealing River ** [ Jc ]
travschmaltz shows [ Qs, Qh ] a pair of queens.
drumcd shows [ 3h, 3d ] three of a kind, threes.
TwoNine29 shows [ Kh, Ah ] a pair of kings.
VTownRida shows [ As, Qd ] high card ace.
XiaoWu shows [ Ks, Kd ] three of a kind, kings.
drumcd finished in ninth place.
VTownRida finished in eighth place.
TwoNine29 wins 150 chips from side pot #3 with a pair of kings.
XiaoWu wins 135 chips from side pot #2 with three of a kind, kings.
XiaoWu wins 120 chips from side pot #1 with three of a kind, kings.
XiaoWu wins 4625 chips from the main pot with three of a kind, kings.
3s lmao
VTownRida has left the table.
drumcd has left the table.


Or you just could be playing with a bunch of maniacs. Half the table goes AI, what's the chances someone has AA? Very high. Was I gonna fold? Nah. True story.

[UncleBuddy]

so give me a preflop scenario where u are going to lay down kk

You are the big blind with three left at the final table. Both players are all in ahead of you...

You fold, everytime.

[JCooper]

so give me a preflop scenario where u are going to lay down kk

You are the big blind with three left at the final table. Both players are all in ahead of you...

You fold, everytime.

That is just crazy. 3-handed, people have to play much looser. Someone could go AI with AT and QQ goes AI to get heads up... very likely scenario.

[UncleBuddy]

so give me a preflop scenario where u are going to lay down kk

You are the big blind with three left at the final table. Both players are all in ahead of you...

You fold, everytime.

That is just crazy. 3-handed, people have to play much looser. Someone could go AI with AT and QQ goes AI to get heads up... very likely scenario.

It's costing you money. Let me lay it out for you:

You are in 3rd place.....you play it and win: Move up to second place, possibly first. You lose....you are out at third. If you fold....you are almost guaranteed to be in 2nd.

You are in 2nd place: You lose to the big stack and finish 3rd, or you could take the lead. You fold: You are almost guaranteed 2nd.

You are in 1st place: You go in and win...you dominate, you lose, you are probably in second and badly wounded. If you fold, you are either in first, or near even with the winner with a 50/50 shot at being first.

[lovemachine]

sklansky has a hypothetical situation in one of his books about the right time to lay down AA preflop. this situation was related to being at the final table of a huge tournament, wsop, wpt for example in late position where you are extremely short stacked compared to everyone elses stack, having maybo 50k chips with blinds being 25k/50k, while every elses stack is well over a million. 2 middle stacks go all-in in front of you, then chip leader goes all-in over the top. you lay this down in this situation because at least 1 person if not 2 will lose out on this hand skyrocketing your winnings as the payouts are so big in these tournaments and move up quickly at the final table. the other reason you make this laydown is because there is such a good chance it will be cracked vs 3 other good hands and even if it does hold up, your stack is now only 4x big blind and you are still extremely short stacked so the chances or coming back are still very bad. in this case i believe he showed his math for the EV and your EV increases by laying down the aces because you will make more by moving up in the payouts.

of course this situation if very hypothetical, but if it suggests laying down aces this would be the case for KK and every other hand as well.

my KK actually ran into AA a couple days ago in an sng, the tourney before i lost when QQ ran into AA, then the next day KK ran into AA again. only one of these times did i consider laying it down because blinds were still 10/20, i raised to 100, and the player moved me all-in for my whole stack which was 1400 more. the only reason i considered this play was because i have played with this player many times and knew he had either QQ, the other KK, AA, or possibly AKs but probably not. i ended up calling and he had AA and took down my kings but i dont regret making these calls, it happens from time to time and more times than not your kings will be the best hand when all-in preflop. for online play only lay it down if you know the player so well that you know he is only going to push with AA or KK in this situation, then you lay it down because it is 6 times more likely he has AA than the other KK. also possibly lay it down in a nl cash game where preflop all-ins are usually much stronger hands than tournament all-ins

[gabe]

The great Dan Harrington says the following:

The only thing you should call a preflop raise and reraise with is AA. (period) If you raise big and get reraised, fold. If there's a raise and a reraise in front of you, fold. If someone raise, you reraise him and get raised back, fold.

50% or more of the time you skip this rule with KK, QQ, AK you'll find yourself out of the tournament. Sometimes you'll be playing a fool and he'll have JJ or QQ against your KK. But, Dan knows and he's very clear on what he would do.

I would say, the exception might be if you have alot more chips than the other guy, against small stacks, etc. There are situations where your KK is probably best. But against a similar stack or larger, drop em if the hand has been raised strongly and reraised strongly.

I have Harrington's book, and he says this on page 240:

About a year ago, a tight player in the big blind raised me. I actually thought he had aces. I was in early position with a pair of kings. I made a modest raise and he reraised me. I thought a long time and claled. The flop came three small cards, and he bet a modest amount and I called. He actually had the aces.

I almost threw the hand away, but I couldn't do it. Just not savvy enough. Even bets and raises that seem to indicate great strength can have a variet of explanations, from moderately strong hands to outright bluffs. And heres a little secret from the world of top-class poker. Nobody else is that savvy either, no matter what they tell you.


So....I don't think he would lay it down either.