Final table- Make the call?

[Demiparadigm]

I am not a tournament player. I am the TA player that gets a bad beat after 3 hours and maybe wins my buy in back. That being said-
Recently at my local B&M NL tourney $100 Buy in 80 players, I was at the fina ltable in 2nd chip position with about 40K in chips 1st had 65K and the other 2 were pretty short.
Blinds were 1000/2000 with a 200 ante. The table was playing tight, trying to get into the top 3 money spots, and I was tighter.
UTG, I get dealt JdTd and raise to 6000
I am surprised when I get 2 callers, the button and Big blind (big stack)
The button had to put in at least a quarter of his stack to make the call.
The flop comes 8d9d6c Giving me a straight flush draw with 2 overcards. There is almost 20k in the pot.
The big blind moves all in, and it is up to me to act.

Should I make the call?

[a500lbgorilla]

What's the payout structure?

-'rilla

[Demiparadigm]

9 places pay out, I don' t remember the exact numbers.
It was approximately

1st $2500
2nd $1500
3rd $900
4th $600

That may be something I should pay more attention to in the future.

[ilikeaces86]

easy call

[bigred]

I would have called as well.

[HeavyP]

Are you playing to win? Or are you playing to win some money? That's the question you have to ask yourself when making plays like this. I make that call everytime because I play for first, and flopping an open ended straight flush draw is one of the best flops you can hope for with that hand. What other POSSIBLE flop could come that would warrant the raise you made? If you can't call with that then you shouldn't be raising with JTsuited.

[TheDoc]

lets not forget he also has two overs which have the possibility of being good if they hit.

[bigred]

Yeah but they're not clean outs. The could have AA or KK. Maybe he played a low pp huge and hit the set. Then he can only win with the straight.

[HeavyP]

Yeah but they're not clean outs. The could have AA or KK. Maybe he played a low pp huge and hit the set. Then he can only win with the straight.

Yes, but if he cannot make this call when someone shows resistence then he should not be raising with JTs

[DavSimon]

Yeah but they're not clean outs. The could have AA or KK. Maybe he played a low pp huge and hit the set. Then he can only win with the straight.

Yes, but if he cannot make this call when someone shows resistence then he should not be raising with JTs

I agree with Heavy P, if you are going to raise J-Ts UTG and get most of what you wanted with that flop....you have to call. If you wanted to steal blinds you should have raised more like 5xBB. My "guess" is that you were probably up against low PP and two overs like A-K or A-Q......BUT... It could have easily been a big stack steal, he figures you are an easy fold since you don't want to go out 4th and the shortstack is all but commited anyway - he will take his chance against a low PP.

You are down to four people and have an opportunity to "potentially" take one guy out and severly hurt the bigstack...I take it. I will live with the $600, but I certainly am taking a shot at the $2500......Soooo....what happened?

[BarcaBoy]

I'd probably call in that situation hoping for the diamond than landing the overcard because odds are one of them already had a pocket pair or one had an ace high which puts you behind already.

[HeavyP]

The only hands that have you beat right now are sets, or better flush draws (Axd) And you're only AT MOST a 60/40 dog. Even if someone flopped a straight or two pair you are ahead in the hand. That means it would be very hard for me to lay this hand down.

[Demiparadigm]

This was probably the hardest decision I have made in my poker lifetime.
Up to this point in the tournament, I had only shown down 3 hands. AA, QQ before the flop and AKs when I flopped top pair. I had been playing according to something TJ Cloutier once said: "If you never get called, you will end up with all the chips."
I had taken down a few pots and stolen enough blinds to maintain my stack. So, when I raised I expected people to put me on a big pair.

Are you playing to win? Or are you playing to win some money? That's the question you have to ask yourself when making plays like this. I make that call everytime because I play for first, and flopping an open ended straight flush draw is one of the best flops you can hope for with that hand. What other POSSIBLE flop could come that would warrant the raise you made? If you can't call with that then you shouldn't be raising with JTsuited.

This is a good question, however what I have is a J high hand. I figure I am about 50% to win from the flop, as I am putting the Big blind on one of 3 hands- an overpair, which he probably would have reraised pre-flop, a small PP that didn't make a set (I think he would have check-raised with the set, although he may be afraid of draws) or TPGK. This would be ideal, but I think the all in is extreme, as you will probably only be called by better hands, and have committed a lot of chips. Ultimately, I think he has 77, giving him the PP and a straight draw.

Understand also, there were only 4 players. JTs is a very strong hand shorthanded. This combined with my table image makes it more than worthy of a raise. I would actually be happier with top pair right now, as I don't expect either player to be able to beat it.

I am normally a ring game player, and more importantly a limt player. In limit this hand I would raise all the way to river, and I would call automatically in a NL ring game. But, as you stated, I want to win the tournament.
If I fold, I can probably continue to pick up blinds, as people would assume I had AK. I think the fold guarantees me at least 2nd place, based on how the game has gone up to this point.
If I call I think I am in a race. I don't want to be in a race. I want to be ahead, Iwant to be the bettor, not the caller. If I lose the race I am out, I am done. I lost. I am not thinking about payouts, I am thinking "do I want to flip a coin to stay in the tournament"
If I call and win I have almost 100K in chips, and the one player I am worried about (the chip leader) becomes a short stack I have command, and I can pick the spots. He is super agressive and probably the favorite, but I can break him.

lets not forget he also has two overs which have the possibility of being good if they hit.

Yeah but they're not clean outs. The could have AA or KK. Maybe he played a low pp huge and hit the set. Then he can only win with the straight.

These are good points that I took into account. AA or KK is proably not the case, I think the raise would have come on the flop. I also don't think I'm against a set, unless the shortstack has it, which I am not worried about. I don't even care if he has me beat, because we would split the pot almost 50/50 I am worried about the big stack.

'd probably call in that situation hoping for the diamond than landing the overcard because odds are one of them already had a pocket pair or one had an ace high which puts you behind already.

The ideal card to come is actually the 7 or Q, giving me the nut straight. A diamond would only give me a J high flush.

The only hands that have you beat right now are sets, or better flush draws (Axd) And you're only AT MOST a 60/40 dog.

Anything worth betting has me beat. I just have a great draw.

If you wanted to steal blinds you should have raised more like 5xBB

I raised 3x BB because that is what I always raised. I don't want to give away the texture of my hand with the size of my bet. It would be ridiculous to raise 5x BB to steal then underbet with a legitimate hand.

Also, if I get a big reraise, I am not pot committed and can get off my hand pretty easily.

I'll post what happened tomorrow.

[a500lbgorilla]

1 more question.

Where did you rate your own skill compared to your opponents?

If you think you where miles above the competition, you fold. If it was a tough table, you gotta call.

-'rilla

[Demiparadigm]

I think I am probably 2nd in skill. The chip leader is a old, mean bastard that I have seen in $6/$12 games, and I am not sure he ever has a bad day on the table. The other 2 are guys in their 20s calling too much, but capable of good laydowns.

[a500lbgorilla]

I don't like seeing more chips going to old pro. I might make my stand right here and try to solidify my first place finish.

-'rilla

[michael1123]

This is a tough one, but even if its near a 50/50 race, like hands like this usually are, when you consider the big pot, and the 18k of dead money in the middle (especially compared to your remaining 32k), its very nice in terms of pot odds. But of course the bigger question is do you risk flipping a coin and possibly finish 4th to become the big favorite to finish 1st.

I didn't have quite this many chips, but I was faced with a similar decision at the final table of the tournament I won the $15k in on Wednesday. At the final table the blinds were huge (even compared to most of our stacks), and there were very few flops seen - usually everyone would fold after someone raised, or that person would be reraised and everyone would fold then.

Here I sit at the table with about an average stack, and with 6 or 7 people left in the tournament, and a big hand happens. An early/mid position player makes a standard 3x BB raise, and then the next player after him (usually a position where you give more respect to raises / calls) reraises big, for a good portion of his stack, and almost all of my stack. The action folds around to me and there I am with AKs. I knew that it was EXTREMELY likey, given the action, that at least one of them had a pocket pair. I could fold and wait for a better spot, and wait for a time where I can push instead of call. But I also saw that if I won this hand, it could very well triple me up, as the original raiser could call as well, and even if they didn't, they still added a sizeable amount of dead money to the pot.

I went for it, flopped a K against the reraisers QQ (original raiser called and check folded on the flop), and instantly went from rather small stack to big stack, locking myself into finishing in the final 3 spots, and giving myself a good shot at first. If I don't make that call, who knows what happens.

A bit of a different situation in this hand, as you have more chips (in relation to the table) than I did, but there's also less players left, which not only should be loosening up your decisions, but is also likely to be loosening up the betters play in this hand. I probably go for first and make the call here (and pray that they don't have a bigger flush draw, which is the only hand they may play like that that really has you in terrible shape).

[HeavyP]

The better flush draw and a set are the only two hands you are underdogs to. I believe a call there is the decesion with all the money in the pot.

[michael1123]

The nut straight has you in real bad shape, probably the worst hand they could have against the open ended straight flush draw, as not only does it kill your straight draw, but pair draws as well (and even running jacks or tens or whatever). But it'd be EXTREMELY unlikely that the big stack would lead all in with a set or a straight, so the only think you really need to worry about here is a higher flush draw.

[iwa]

Call! Especially with some one leading ai on a hand like that, what does he have? 10s? flush draw? If he had a really strong hand, I dont think he would lead out betting AI like that with that flop... Go for first, double up and win 2500

[michael1123]

Call! Especially with some one leading ai on a hand like that, what does he have? 10s? flush draw? If he had a really strong hand, I dont think he would lead out betting AI like that with that flop... Go for first, double up and win 2500

... The problem is that the flush draw (assuming its higher) is one of the worst hands he could have against the open ended flush draw. If we had AA, the fact that he lead all in would make it an easy call, but with a hand like this, you'd prefer to be against an overpair or top pair or whatever else than a higher flush draw (that kills half of your hands strength).

[Demiparadigm]

Let me first say, I am very impressed wit hthe level of discussion in this thread, I think it is one of the best I have seen.

Now to the hand:

I called. I think this was my best decision, because if I won I would be in great position to win the tournament.

The big stack had, surprisingly, almost the best hand possible for me to be behind. Qs 9c giving him top pair, and removing one of my outs, but if a J or 10 came, his redraw was t othe remaining two 9s, since the Q gave me the nuts. (if a Q came, he would have 4 outs.)

The small stack folded, afraid he was dead.

the turn came Ah
the river was 5c

And I was out of the tournament. (actual 4th place money was $512)

Coincidentally, when the small stack folded, he showed the 7d, 7c removing two more of my outs. Also interesting, he would have made a straight on the river had he gone all in, which he was planning to do until I called.

So what do you think of the play of the other two in the hand?

[michael1123]

You probably got more detailed responses because your first post was detailed, listing stack sizes, the size of the blinds, and along with the payout structure in the next post, you supplied all the information for everyone to come to a conclusion on what they'd do. Well done.

As far as the other two, I think they both played it well, and also made rather standard decisions. The big stack decides to apply a lot of pressure with what he figures is the best hand, but also decides not to check raise with all the possible draws out there and just a pair. The other player figured to have a good deal of outs, and possibly even the best hand, with one better, but with two all ins in front of him it became obvious that he didn't have the best hand, some of his outs have to be killed by other draws (flush draw is extremely likely), and he may even be drawing near dead to a straight, set, or a hand like 97 or 87.

So yeah, solid play by all in this hand.