Bluffing into a dry side pot

[Trikflow77]

Its it just me, or does this happen too often in online holdem tournaments? It is flat out wrong and stupid IMO. I have had this happen several times, and yesterday a kq all in bluff cost me a pot, and failed to knock out a player. Is this not common etiquette in online tournaments? I have played in quite a few live tournaments and this is an accepted practice. Does anyone else see this happen often?

[LeFou]

what about a semibluff? still not kosher?

[lolzzz_321]

Yes, I see it happen, that's really not cool.

No semi-bluffs either please.

[Trikflow77]

I see it all the time. Why semi bluff? What would it gain you? Betting into a dry pot is telling the other player, hey I got this one. You dont bluff at the pot and let the all in guy win with a crappy hand. I had this happen twice in the last week when I had 99 and 1010. Both times the other player that was not all in bluff-raised all in with kq/ak. Both times I folded, and the all in player won the hand with like pocket fives, and pocket two's.

[DavSimon]

I've seen it quite a bit, and I don't think it is anything other than inexperience. They don't look at it as doubling thier chances of knocking someone out, they figure by bluffing you out they are somehow increasing thier chances of winning the hand. I just type in the chat....good job dork, you just bluffed out the winning hand and doubled xxxx up - are you two working together? It is usually met by silence or protesting about not colluding with each other, at least it stops the guy from bluffing for a while....so there is a little benefit.

[TxTick]

Newbie question - What's a dry side pot? What makes what you are discussing wrong? Just want to know in case I find myself in a similar situation. Thanks.

[Spook]

Blinds 100/200
Player A is UTG, short stacked with $500 and goes all-in
Player B,C,D,E all fold
Player F on the button calls and has $3000 remaining
SB folds
BB calls leaving him with $2500

Main pot=$1600
Flop :As: :Ks:



BB has :Tc:
Player A has
Player F has :Js:

BB checks
Player F bets $400

BB believes his bottom pair is beat so he folds.

Turn

River :Ad:

Short stack has now trippled up when he should not have. Both Player F and the BB would be in better postion (closer to the money) if Player F hadn't been a putz and just seen the next card for free.

{edit}Dry side pot is an empty pot. if BB had called the $400 bet from player F there would have been another pot (side pot) with that $800 in it. Player A can only win the main pot.. the second one is for any further action between player F and BB (in this case)

[a500lbgorilla]

Its it just me, or does this happen too often in online holdem tournaments? It is flat out wrong and stupid IMO. I have had this happen several times, and yesterday a kq all in bluff cost me a pot, and failed to knock out a player. Is this not common etiquette in online tournaments? I have played in quite a few live tournaments and this is an accepted practice. Does anyone else see this happen often?

Yes.

And anyone who you ask says that they give themselves a better chance to win when they get you out.

I just laugh.

45s vrs KQo v AA

AA shortstack AI. flop comes 4 T J. KQo bets. 45 folds. So lets see. If KQ hits his OESD he has a straight and would want me in the pot. If he hits a better pair, he beats me (for no money) but still loses to rockets. My hand basically unaffects his hand but does threaten the short stack. But still he bets...

It boggles my mind.

-'rilla

[TxTick]

Thanks, I understand now!

[™]

I hate it when people do this. I read it somewhere along this post and I agree that I think its just the players are inexpereinced and dont realize what their doing.

[r8ed]

For sake of argument, couldn't not betting into a dry pot just to get a short stack out be considered collusion? You are purposely not betting your hand to win, just to get somebody else out. If you have AA but there is a flush draw that you don't have, you would bet at some point in a regular hand. So, you should do so in this case. You risked a portion of your chips just to play the hand and if you were ahead before and lose on the river to the other checker, then you gave away chips just to be a nice guy.

Again, this is just for argument. It think there is time for ettiquette and time to play poker to win. This case is a grey area.

[TylerK]

Negreanu has a pretty in-depth article on this...let's see if I can find it...
Part 1
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...=13113&m_id=53
Part 2
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...=13135&m_id=54

[r8ed]

I read the articles. What a hypocrite that guy is. First article he thinks he is entitled to the pot and goes on tilt. The second article, he has no problem betting to take the pot down. Look at #5. If you are the large stack then check and let somebody else take it if they bet if you claim to have a conscience.

I agree, the situation should dictate what you should do. But, you should play to win. Willingly giving up chips (some of them yours) to be nice is not the best way to win a tournament.

[a500lbgorilla]

For sake of argument, couldn't not betting into a dry pot just to get a short stack out be considered collusion? You are purposely not betting your hand to win, just to get somebody else out. If you have AA but there is a flush draw that you don't have, you would bet at some point in a regular hand. So, you should do so in this case. You risked a portion of your chips just to play the hand and if you were ahead before and lose on the river to the other checker, then you gave away chips just to be a nice guy.

Again, this is just for argument. It think there is time for ettiquette and time to play poker to win. This case is a grey area.

You can bet the dry side pot if you have a hand that you feel will win but is vulnerable to a draw. That's not a bluff.

-'rilla

[a500lbgorilla]

I read the articles. What a hypocrite that guy is. First article he thinks he is entitled to the pot and goes on tilt. The second article, he has no problem betting to take the pot down. Look at #5. If you are the large stack then check and let somebody else take it if they bet if you claim to have a conscience.

I agree, the situation should dictate what you should do. But, you should play to win. Willingly giving up chips (some of them yours) to be nice is not the best way to win a tournament.

I think you're just talking about anytime someone bets into a dry side pot.

We're talking about a dry side pot bluff. When you have a hand that you know probably isn't ahead of anyone else but still bet into a dry side pot.

-'rilla

[LeFou]

You can bet the dry side pot if you have a hand that you feel will win but is vulnerable to a draw. That's not a bluff.

Cool. I feel better since that's what i was asking about -- what i occasionally do -- and i guess I mistakenly called that semibluffing.

e.g.:

Just last night in fact I find AKs, raise, a guy goes AI short-calling and another guy calls.

Flop has no A no K but two spades and no str8 draw. I bet a modest amount and opp releases what i assume is an inferior ace or an inferior draw.

I feel okay about this because I know that if opp has A7 and catches a 7 he'll bet and I won't be able to call. I know this.

It's a grey area, but I feel like I'm protecting the best hand here. Your thoughts?

[Pyroxene]

I have done it myself one time and I felt I had good reason.

The All-In guy was a poor player that was predictable. The other player acted after I called the All-In. This other player was a loose cannon, went All-In a lot with everything from premium hands to crap. I felt it would be easier to win the chips back from the All-In (poor player) than face the total gamble situation of giving the chips to the Loose Cannon. In order of preference:

1) I want to win the pot.
2) I want to lose the pot to All-In bad player.
3) Lose the pot to Loose Cannon.

So I bet Loose Cannon out of the pot when I had nothing.

What are people's thoughts on that?

[a500lbgorilla]

I have done it myself one time and I felt I had good reason.

The All-In guy was a poor player that was predictable. The other player acted after I called the All-In. This other player was a loose cannon, went All-In a lot with everything from premium hands to crap. I felt it would be easier to win the chips back from the All-In (poor player) than face the total gamble situation of giving the chips to the Loose Cannon. In order of preference:

1) I want to win the pot.
2) I want to lose the pot to All-In bad player.
3) Lose the pot to Loose Cannon.

So I bet Loose Cannon out of the pot when I had nothing.

What are people's thoughts on that?

This is flawed reasoning in a tourny.

Here's what you should value in this hand.

Knocking out an opponent > Winning chips.

If your hand probably isn't best, then the chance that the turn or river makes it the best are nearly the same with or without the other guy.

You're trying to clean up your outs which is silly becuase if you do make the best hand, you may be able to extract a few chips from the opponent if he's still in the hand.

You're trying to push a small edge in a tourny where the end result will usually be the short stack gets healthy. That is a horrible result. Especially on the bubble or deep in the money.

[r8ed]

This happened to me yesterday in fact. Some small stack that kept going all in with Kx or even worse. I got AK and actually raised to let everyone know I had him beat. I got reraised by KK. I called since i figured I had him beat too. He got a king and won - small stack had 33. I didn't complain but it really hurt my stack. I have no problem with this.

[JeffreyGB]

Cool. I feel better since that's what i was asking about -- what i occasionally do -- and i guess I mistakenly called that semibluffing.

e.g.:

Just last night in fact I find AKs, raise, a guy goes AI short-calling and another guy calls.

Flop has no A no K but two spades and no str8 draw. I bet a modest amount and opp releases what i assume is an inferior ace or an inferior draw.

I feel okay about this because I know that if opp has A7 and catches a 7 he'll bet and I won't be able to call. I know this.

It's a grey area, but I feel like I'm protecting the best hand here. Your thoughts?

To me, that's not a bluff bet. Here you have the semi-bluff thing right - you're betting on a potential hand that very well may come and may win. Further, shorty was all-in preflop, where AKs may well be the best hand, so this could be a value bet that he didn't hit and you don't want the other caller to hit the turn/river. It's grey, but not grey enough to be a problem.

If you bet solely to get the other caller out, it may be looked at differently, but to me you're also betting on your A/K/spade outs. Assuming they are all good, you're actually a slight favorite to win here even if they did pair the flop (at least, I think...same outs as a straightflush draw).

[Aceofone]

Why would you semi-bluff a hand that has no (thats right ZERO) implied odds. If you force him out, you might make your draw and kick out the shortstack, but you might miss when the other fellow would have hit and taken out the short-stack.

The small edge you gain from bluffing at a dry side-pot is so insignificant compared to knocking out a player, as rilla already stated. If you make your draw, then bet, maybe you can extract some chips.

Also consider what you are doing for the fellow who is allin, he now only has one hand to beat, and that hand is Ace-High. By pushing the player out, you have significantly increased his (short-stack's) chances of winning the pot.

Bluffing into a dry side pot is a lose-lose situation, anyone who has seen a shortstack come back to dominate a tourney will tell you this. Just dont do it.

Bluffing into a juicy side pot is another matter entirely.

[Rondavu]

I always bet into dry side pots. The less people in the hand, the better the chance you have of taking it down.

Say you have (KJ), and Side pot player B has (AQ). There were preflop raises so you put him on faces.

The flop comes 10-2-7

You bluff the dry pot to get rid of him. He folds and then the turn and river come out J-A.

You take out the all in who had pocket 8's with your pair of jacks instead of losing to the river ace from the guy who you bluffed out of the pot.

What's wrong with that?

Your not just bluffing a dry side pot. Your bluffing for the main pot as well. Get over it Daniel Negreanu.

[a500lbgorilla]

I always bet into dry side pots. The less people in the hand, the better the chance you have of taking it down.

Wrong.

Don't push small edges like this in a tourny.

Value eliminating a player over the 100 or 200 chips you might profit in the long run by bluffing the dry side pot.

Here's how the hand SHOULD work.

You both check the flop with nothing, you turn a jack bet and get the other guy out. Betting with top pair is not a bluff, you're trying to protect your main pot now. Then the river ace is meaningless.

The way you did it was give 88 a much better chance at surviving in the tourny.

In your hand, you're both 26% to win the main pot. By eliminating the other player, you improve your chances to a whopping 31%.

I'm sorry but bluffing a dry side pot is a big mistake and it's not one of those mistakes that just hurts you in the long run. It hurts everybody.

-'rilla

[SmackinYaUp]

From that article:

. I’m in the small blind with the Au Ku K™ 8´.

I think he should call the floorman

[Rondavu]

I'm sorry but bluffing a dry side pot is a big mistake and it's not one of those mistakes that just hurts you in the long run. It hurts everybody.

Well, I guess if it's a straight cold bluff your right. If it's a semi-bluff on a strong draw then I have to disagree. The way Daniel Negreanu puts it he cares more about eliminating one more player in a tourney than building his stack. To me, time will eliminate players. Your concentration should only be on buying more time by winning more chips. You don't get extra bonus chips for knocking someone out. I could care less about knocking people out. I only care about myself and my own stack. This isn't socialism, this is poker.

In your hand, you're both 26% to win the main pot. By eliminating the other player, you improve your chances to a whopping 31%.

This 31% number has to be wrong. There's only two people in the pot at this point. How do you automatically give the all-in a 70% chance to win the pot? I'm not trying to call you a liar, but I just don't understand where that comes from.

[DavSimon]

You don't get extra bonus chips for knocking someone out. I could care less about knocking people out. I only care about myself and my own stack. This isn't socialism, this is poker.

While I understand you point of view, I don't necessarily agree with it in the tourney environment. If you bluff....even semi-bluff with a strong draw and miss and you bluffed the winning hand out of the pot.....you just tripled up the short stack and lost the same # of chips. Tripling up this person just gave them new life and may indeed reduce your chances of winning or placing ITM. If you wait to hit your draw and bet your hand you may get paid off by the third opponent in the pot thereby increasing your win. If he folds when you make your hand then you have lost nothing you would have gained by bluffing him out to begin with. Removing one more player only helps you get 1 step closer to your goal of winning the tournament. Sometimes to win a tournament you have to consider more than what will directly benefit you THIS hand and look at the bigger picture.

[a500lbgorilla]

Well, I guess if it's a straight cold bluff your right. If it's a semi-bluff on a strong draw then I have to disagree. The way Daniel Negreanu puts it he cares more about eliminating one more player in a tourney than building his stack.

Why semi-bluff a dry side pot!? When you hit your draw you want another player in the pot to pay your ass off. You eliminate almost all implied odds from the equation as only better hands will contest for the side pot you're trying to create and most of the money will probably go in before the river.

To me, time will eliminate players. Your concentration should only be on buying more time by winning more chips. You don't get extra bonus chips for knocking someone out. I could care less about knocking people out. I only care about myself and my own stack. This isn't socialism, this is poker.

Have you ever played hand for hand? Hadn't you wished you got there quicker and blew through it quicker so that blinds would be smaller on the other end? Knocking players out is very important becuase when they see it go hand for hand, small stacks will cling to 2 big blinds stacks like none other.

This 31% number has to be wrong. There's only two people in the pot at this point. How do you automatically give the all-in a 70% chance to win the pot? I'm not trying to call you a liar, but I just don't understand where that comes from.

In 3 way action, you're chasing 6 outs but lose if you hit an out and the other guy hits a better out (of his 6) this represented by the difference in the win percentage. The pocket pair 88 is hoping for you both to dodge each of your 6 outs twice. So he's dodging 12 cards twice. By having you stone cold bluff (or a sloppy semi-bluff if you want to dress shit up) you're improving 88's chance to win. Now he's only dodging 6 outs twice and astronimcally improves his chances to win and triple up while you've only slightly increased your chances to scoop the pot. Trust me, I'm right.


--------------------------

Like I said before, what you're doing is forcing a very small edge in tournament play and you're giving a short stack an excellent shot at scooping a pot that will triple him up and force all action longer.

I'll look on Danny's forum to see if there's a thread where he discusses why bluffing a dry side pot is silly becuase it hurts you and everyone else.

-'rilla

[Trikflow77]

See what I mean, even on here there are players that bluff side pots. The goal in a tourny is to survive, and any chance you get to knock a player out, you take it. A strong draw is still a draw, and you could still end up with nothing. I would LOVE to check down a strong draw, that way I get to a cheap showdown and if I hit, then I can bet it, or better yet, some idiot will bluff at it and I take down a big pot. This is just common poker etiquette and any semi good tournament player knows this. I am glad I brought up this post even if it informs a few more people because damn it is annoying to get bluffed out of a pot that you would have won and or keep a player in a tourny that shouldnt be there.

[a500lbgorilla]

See what I mean, even on here there are players that bluff side pots. The goal in a tourny is to survive, and any chance you get to knock a player out, you take it. A strong draw is still a draw, and you could still end up with nothing. I would LOVE to check down a strong draw, that way I get to a cheap showdown and if I hit, then I can bet it, or better yet, some idiot will bluff at it and I take down a big pot. This is just common poker etiquette and any semi good tournament player knows this. I am glad I brought up this post even if it informs a few more people because damn it is annoying to get bluffed out of a pot that you would have won and or keep a player in a tourny that shouldnt be there.

It's damn annoying just to see it happen at my table.

-'rilla