Pocket 8s in the Paradise 100k: Was this really dumb?

[face]

Yesterday I won a satellite (4th/287) giving me a seat in the Paradise 100k (300 buyin) for $32 dollars (rebuys and an add-on in addition to the $8 entry fee). Of course I was excited and nervous, as this was by far the biggest prize amount in any tourney I've played in. Lately I've been finishing ITM in large freerolls and small buyin MTTs, but one or two big hands cripple me late and take me out of contention for the deep money. I resolved to play the same way I did in the Satellite and not to revert to my usual weak/tight style. Early in the tourney I got pocket AA, went in for a 3bb raise and took out a shortstack who made top pair KJ with a checkraise when we were heads up in a pot. This gave me about 2500 chips.

Then this hand arose. A bigger stacked player entered our table with 5500 chips and the blinds were at 50/100. I was on the BB and he was in UTG + 1 and he brought in for a minraise to 200. I had J7 offsuit but with no other callers I felt like I could defend my blind and hope to hit the flop hard. Another read I had on this player was that he always made continuation bets of around pot size if he was the preflop raise. The flop came J25 rainbow. I considered betting right out but I thought he would fold if he didn't have the J and I could get a few more chips from him, and some respect, if I checkraised him the pot. I put him on two paint or a medium ace. I checked and he bet 300 into a 450 pot. I raised 750 making the pot 1500. He thought for about 4 minutes, going into the tank, and pushed and I of course folded. He said he had KJ. This left me with 1500 or so chips.

The next hand I was dealt pocket 8s in 3rd from the button, and the table folded around to me. This table was very tight, and 3BB raises usually took down the blinds. I knew the BB was not defending his blinds and seemed to be camping, and I knew the button, CO and CO-1 liked to come in for a raise, not to call raises. I didn't have a read on the SB -- first mistake. I raised to 450 (blinds were now 75/150), as all my previous PF raises into unraised pots were 3x BB. It folds around to the SB, who thinks for a minute and reraises me allin. At this point, if I folded I would have 1050 chips or so, leaving me very shortstacked with the blinds moving to 100/200. As I had "stolen" the blinds a few times, I thought the SB was playing back at me with a high ace and that we had a race. In hindsight, I suppose this was based on nothing. Anyway, I felt like I had to call, as I could double up to a respectable position and if I folded the next round of blinds would take 1/3 of my stack. I did and he flipped up two AA. We both made full boats and his was higher, so I was out of the tourney. Should I have waited for a better time? I feel awful about this play, because I knew he knew I was stealing and he was just waiting for the chance to snap off my steal with a monster hand -- a strategy for which I was apparently a sucker.

Any input would be appreciated. I still suck at this game and want to improve. I've read widely in this forum and highly respect and admire the analysis here -- it's helped me a lot (completely sucking to sort of sucking). Thanks.

[zenbitz]

I can't imagine wanting to play J7o vs a larger stack. If you really want to find out if he's stealing, you have to reraise preflop. J7 is a horrid hand, why would you want to see a flop??

As for 88... it's not a pure steal, because from the button you have to think you have the best hand. You have 10 BB here, so if you play you have to be willing to play for all your chips - and you should know this before you raise. I think with the SB holding AA... you are pretty screwed. I think it's reasonable to assume he had AK, but you can't discount the high pocker pair - even TT or JJ is way ahead of you.

I am trying hard to find the lay down here... but it's really tough. About the only think I can say is that if you can't afford to lose your PFR, then it's too big. And the 5 BB you have left is survivable... barely.

As for the other guy... "brilliant" strategy to camp on AA and wait to snap off your steal... what was his plan when he didn't have AA?

[face]

My play with the J7 was influenced by 2 factors. First was that there 350 in the pot and 100 to call against 1 person. Second, I knew that this player always bet the flop, regardless of whether he hit or not. The fact that I made top pair crap kicker, and that the board was J rags, just reinforced the checkraise play back at this player I wanted to make. He said that he was very close to folding, but he just happened to make TPSK. I think 7/10 of 8/10 with this board against this player that this play would work. I know J7 is garbage. Maybe I'm completely wrong. Also, I had the 88 3 seats off the button, not on the button.

[Sed]

I can't imagine wanting to play J7o vs a larger stack. If you really want to find out if he's stealing, you have to reraise preflop. J7 is a horrid hand, why would you want to see a flop??

yep... gotta let that one go unless you are willing to re-raise him. I also wouldn't put a guy on a steal attempt at the table from UTG+1... kinda risky to do it there without having built up a tight table image first (not that I don't steal from UTG+1). However, I will usually give a guy credit with a raise from that early without a good read.

Having about 10xBB with the blinds going up soon I would either limp with 88 from MP and see where I am after the flop or push all-in to steal the blinds or double up on a coinflip... I don't like committing myself to a hand by raising 1/3 my stack unless I am trying to trap an aggressive player with a monster. A limp-re-raise all-in is also a possibility if you feel a late position steal.

Unfortunately, your reasonably good hand ran into aces... you really had no choice but to call here since you had essentially committed yourself with your raise and could have a coinflip situation.

- sed

[face]

I didn't put the big stack on a steal by any means. I put him on two paint or middle ace. Only a few of those hands: AJ, QJ, KJ, and maybe J10 include a pair on a board of J52, whereas he could have made a minraise from UTG+1 with KQ, K10, Q10, AQ, A10, pocket pairs below JJ even AK (looking for a reraise) or some quirky hand like suited connectors. Because I had one of the four jacks, and because I noticed that the big stack UTG+1 made continuation bets whenver he raised (even min) preflop, I thought I could get him to bluff and fold to my checkraise -- taking down a good pot (1500) and getting him to think twice about bluffing me. I understand this was a slightly reckless play, especially considering he was a big stack (I think he was top 10 of 280 at the time), but I certainly didn't put him on a steal and I agree that if I did, I would have to reraise him preflop, and that J7o is no sort of hand to do that with.

[gabe]

regardless of your reasoning, you should not have been in the hand with J7o. you will make more money from stealing blinds than you will save from defending them.

edit: and the blinds were too small to fight over anyway. at that point in the tourny you still want to be playing pretty tight.

[Alibi]

I agree with sed's advice. Either push or limp that 88.

As for the J-7, let him steal that shit from you. Not worth fighting over.

[face]

I also agree with sed's line. 1/3 of my stack is too much to bet without being ready to follow it in with the remaing 1100 chips -- so why not push it all in and get some folding equity. As for the J7o -- yeah, I still think it's an interesting play that might work a lot of the time, but there are easier spots to rake in pots. Thanks a lot for your input.

[Alibi]

As for the J7o -- yeah, I still think it's an interesting play that might work a lot of the time

Don't count on it.


Fold that

[Sed]

I didn't put the big stack on a steal by any means. I put him on two paint or middle ace.

If you didn't put him on a steal why go into the hand knowing you are behind? I try not to walk upstream when I don't have to.

The check-raise was a good ballsy move in that position with your read. I would have liked to be more evenly stacked with him to attempt it though so he can't use his stack as leverage OR you should have check-raised all-in to remove his ability to re-raise you.... show that you want to double up off his big stack and he can only win this pot at showdown. Obviously you need a really good read that he is just betting continuation but based on your account of the action I think you may have won that pot if you pushed.

- sed

[ihategnomes]

As for the J7o -- yeah, I still think it's an interesting play that might work a lot of the time

If you dont raise with it here, it will never work, but then again, raising an UTG raise, bah, he would have to be the looest maniac for this to be profitable. Another way for looking at it, most players that minraise UTG+1, will not be smart enough to understand your move and folding equity. Like gabe said, your not starving for chips, so you shouldn't risk them. The situation could be marginally different if the board was all low, putting him on high cards, then re-raising his 3/4 pot bet on the flop.

[michael1123]

I agree with the above posts that the biggest problem was in the J7 hand, not the 88 one. You said you're a beginner, which means that you shouldn't be playing in marginal situations with marginal hands. J7 certainly is one of those hands. It was also rather silly to assume that an UTG+1 minraise wouldn't have you dominated, unless you had a read that he'd raise / minraise every hand or some crazy stuff. The standard read here is that he has a monster. Minraising in early position is kind of like limping UTG. So yeah ... AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AJ, KJ, QJ, JT, etc. all dominate you.

Now that doesn't mean that its an automatic fold. Personally, I usually call minraises on the BB if I have a decent stack, looking for implied odds (such as hitting a 77 or J7 flop when he has an overpair or TPTK or whatever). On this specific flop I personally probably would've just called on the flop and gotten my read strengthened based on what they did on the turn (where I then typically have enough info to have a strong read on their hand). If he checks the turn and its not overs, you usually would bet it, as he's respecting your call on the flop and is apparently scared of the top pair. If he bets strong, you usually have to fold. If its a medium to small bet, you need those more detailed and player specific reading skills.

Anyway yeah, it gets real complicated with hands like this, and as a beginner you should look to avoid these type of situations and just fold your BB (and possibly look to make most of your blind defense plays preflop, where things are less complicated, and you won't have to worry about playing against better post flop players that have better hands, which is a big time losing situation).

After that, I almost certainly would've went bust with the 88. With 10xBB left and a decent position, I don't see myself not shoving all in. As has been said the 3xBB bet and then call of the all in is kind of silly, but it really doesn't make too much of a difference when you do call. Folding after raising so much of your stack, and with a decent hand too, would've been really really weak. Limping would be better than raising 3xBB and considering folding, but its still pretty damn passive, and you can't afford to be that passive as a small stack. So yeah, shove instead to make them know they're going to have to play a big pot to call you, and hope not to get unlucky and run into a monster like AA next time!

One last little thing that may help a beginner player that is feeling bad about going out like that. Once you're short stacked, its kind of best to kind of lose all fear of busting, ready to accept that fate at any time. That doesn't mean you should necessarily be all in every hand, but there's no real reason to be afraid or feel bad about busting out at this point (especially with any real decent hand like 88). You're going to need some luck to double up, and there's no way around that. The big stack really has more to fear, as they have all the potential and so many more chips to lose to mistakes. Having the opportunity to play as a short stack, instead of busting straight out as a big / medium stack can be considered as a kind of freeroll to get back into the mix of tournament if you can double up once or twice.

[Iconoclastic]

If you were planning to check-raise the flop, then you wouldn't need J7 to do it. Any two would do. I don't mind that play, but you were unlucky to run into a bigger pair. I believe in the power of a read, and if you read him as making continuation bets with anything, then your check-raise line is correct. It just so happened that he hit the flop.

I couldn't fold preflop there. Giving up your blinds like this is asking other Aggressive players to take your chips.

I woulda pushed the 88 immediately.

[michael1123]

If you just call on the flop, you get the information of whether you're ahead or behind just as easily for less chips, and also see a cheaper turn for a chance to improve your hand if its not the best (while you probably won't see the turn at all if you're behind if you raise on the flop, as you're just going to be pushed off your hand), or in this case you could hit a 7 and double up, or another jack and you'd clearly go with it then as well. The only downside is the possibility of an over hitting on the turn, but in such a marginal situation, I like the play of just calling on the flop much better, and you're still risking less chips than raising on the flop, and overall keeping the pot as a small one instead of making it overly big with a weak hand.

One other thing, what kind of information do you get if they just call your raise on the flop? Do you just check fold from there on out? Certainly you can't assume your hand is good because they just called your raise, as there's tons of hands that beat you here that'd often do the same.

But this is just my style with these type of hands. Also note that I'd probably play it completely different if the preflop raise came from a position of less implied strength, such as on the button or from the SB. Then I think raising is clearly the correct choice, as there's a much better chance that they're just trying to steal the pot and don't have you beat on the flop.