I hate these kinds of people.

[hoaznod]

I've been playing online poker for a couple monthes now. I was ok beforehand in my live games with some friends who were making some decent change in online poker so i decided to give it a shot. I didn't do very good so i started looking for help. I stumbled across this site a month ago and my poker game got better. But i still couldn't turn a profit. I read these forums everyday. I read all the tactics and whatnot on the site. I understood it all. But i kept running into randomness over and over and over and over again.

and i just hate lucky people. and this is like the 100th one today but it was the biggest and most moronic of them all.

this is at the .10/.25 no limit tables at PP and i'm p2x0s13. Guess who the moron is....

***** Hand History for Game 1779482689 *****
$25 NL Hold'em - Wednesday, March 23, 05:56:17 EDT 2005
Table Table 36866 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: PittBull386 ( $37.7 )
Seat 3: M_R_Ducks42 ( $39.76 )
Seat 4: peck80 ( $38.95 )
Seat 5: GoodBuddy69 ( $52.05 )
Seat 6: vtshag13 ( $25 )
Seat 7: funda228 ( $2 )
Seat 8: mozenu ( $45.54 )
Seat 9: p2x0s13 ( $18.05 )
Seat 10: Seitse7 ( $9.4 )
Seat 1: Pali777 ( $8.5 )
peck80 posts small blind [$0.1].
GoodBuddy69 posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to p2x0s13 [ Ks 3c ]
vtshag13 folds.
mozenu raises [$1.5].
p2x0s13 folds.
Seitse7 folds.
Pali777 folds.
PittBull386 folds.
M_R_Ducks42 calls [$1.5].
peck80 raises [$4.9].
GoodBuddy69 calls [$4.75].
mozenu calls [$3.5].
M_R_Ducks42 calls [$3.5].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5s, Qs, As ]
peck80 checks.
GoodBuddy69 checks.
mozenu bets [$5].
M_R_Ducks42 calls [$5].
peck80 folds.
GoodBuddy69 calls [$5].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2h ]
GoodBuddy69 checks.
mozenu bets [$10].
M_R_Ducks42 raises [$20].
GoodBuddy69 raises [$30].
mozenu folds.
>You have options at Table 37600 Table!.
M_R_Ducks42 is all-In [$9.76]
** Dealing River ** [ 3s ]
GoodBuddy69 shows [ Qc, Qd ] three of a kind, queens.
M_R_Ducks42 shows [ 9s, Ah ] a flush, ace high.
GoodBuddy69 wins $0.24 from side pot #1 with three of a kind, queens.
M_R_Ducks42 wins $101.52 from the main pot with a flush, ace high.

so calling a 20xBB raise with A9os with 2 other callers...
then continuing playing with a very low kicker for the raise....
and raising...and calling...and raising...and calling...

i wish i was stupid and i played it...cuz my K of spades was the winner :/

[wobbler]

relax...let them have their fun, they will lose their money soon enough. Learn to love, not hate, the fish

[AJ]

Just when you think the pond is empty, they restock it. These kind of "winners" are the life blood of all good players. When I watch something like that happen (or even have it happen to me) I salivate at the thought of being in hands against that person in the future.

[Khabbi]

Wouldn't this be a good thing? Now instead of having only $39.76 to get from him, you can get twice that much? He's going to lose it eventually, it might just be to you!

[Aceofone]

I dont personally see the problem here, you folded a garbage hand to a raise preflop, good move. So what if it would have hit and made you a bundle, you made the correct move folding it. I can't even count the times I've folded something like Q6 and watched the flop come 666, or QQ6. Just add the idiots to your buddy list and wait till your in a hand with em.

[hecklerjoe]

Assuming the above had happened in a .25/.50 table, your in late position and just entered the game after 2 hands. Your holding the set and two people infront of you be $20 after the flop. Everyone has called your pre-flop raise of $4. Do you call with a flush board? What your thoughts guys.

[hoaznod]

I know these kinds of fish are how most good players get all their money but i played with this guy for another hour or so and he kept making ridiculous calls and getting more and more money. I understand he must of had a lucky day and usually he would lose due to crappy plays but i just think it's ridiculous because i've never won a pot like that using good plays (i'm kind of poor so i think 100 dollars is a lot).

[a500lbgorilla]

I'd cream my pants if I saw someone doing that at my stakes.

Cream these pants o' mine.

Enjoy it while it lasts.

-'rilla

[giantdogs92]

wut a biatch

[ripjohngotti]

giant ur sig makes me feel invaded...and putting a cc on a site is safe :-d

[Rondavu]

Your holding the set and two people infront of you bet $20 after the flop. Everyone has called your pre-flop raise of $4. Do you call with a flush board?

Two people no, one person maybe.

[Cocco_Bill]

Your holding the set and two people infront of you bet $20 after the flop. Everyone has called your pre-flop raise of $4. Do you call with a flush board?

Two people no, one person maybe.

you do know that holding a set you have a 33% chance to draw to a full house, right?

[ChezJ]

not to mention quads. i call.

[Laeelin]

giant ur sig makes me feel invaded...and putting a cc on a site is safe :-d

far far far safer than giving your CC to a waiter to pay for your meal.

anyway someone getting your CC# isnt what you need to fear.

You dont want people to get your bank account number with SS#, address , DL#, and name.

Strangely most people give that information to strangers every day.

[Rondavu]

Your holding the set and two people infront of you bet $20 after the flop. Everyone has called your pre-flop raise of $4. Do you call with a flush board?

Two people no, one person maybe.

you do know that holding a set you have a 33% chance to draw to a full house, right?

Yes, but i also know that $20 is relatively a massive amount of money to be sticking into a pot on a 33% draw, when the blinds are 10¢ and 25¢. Go ahead and call. You'll lose all your money 66% of the time if you play this hand over and over. I don't call this in a million years. Your trying to build your bankroll, not risk it all on speculation where the odds are against you. Carumba. I mean the guy did call and then lost with trip queens didn't he? He deserved to lose a ton of money.

Don't mean to be combative, but come on. Don't lead the guy into the land of gambler make believe.

[Cocco_Bill]

Your holding the set and two people infront of you bet $20 after the flop. Everyone has called your pre-flop raise of $4. Do you call with a flush board?

Two people no, one person maybe.

you do know that holding a set you have a 33% chance to draw to a full house, right?

Yes, but i also know that $20 is relatively a massive amount of money to be sticking into a pot on a 33% draw, when the blinds are 10¢ and 25¢. Go ahead and call. You'll lose all your money 66% of the time if you play this hand over and over. I don't call this in a million years. Your trying to build your bankroll, not risk it all on speculation where the odds are against you. Carumba

This is a cash game not a tourny. If I can more than triple what I bet/call I'm in on a 33% draw every time and there is no guarantees that one of them allready has a flush.

[Rondavu]

This is a cash game not a tourny. If I can more than triple what I bet/call I'm in on a 33% draw every time and there is no guarantees that one of them allready has a flush.

I would make this call in a tournament long before I would with actual cash. Tournaments involve a certain amount of risk/reward against what the numbers tell you. In a cash ring game, there is no long term advantage to taking this risk. If your in large on a 33% draw while I'm in the hand sitting on a flush, then I would love to play against you.

There was no guarantee that someone had the flush, but you have a very strong flush suited board with 2 people ahead of you betting 80x the big blind combined. I think it's safe to assume your up against a flush.

I mean look, if you wanna gamble go for it. Your chances aren't terrible to make a killer pot float over to your stack, but I don't go that way. It's just not a good decision in my book.

[Cocco_Bill]

This is a cash game not a tourny. If I can more than triple what I bet/call I'm in on a 33% draw every time and there is no guarantees that one of them allready has a flush.

I would make this call in a tournament long before I would with actual cash. Tournaments involve a certain amount of risk/reward against what the numbers tell you. In a cash ring game, there is no long term advantage to taking this risk. If your in large on a 33% draw while I'm in the hand sitting on a flush, then I would love to play against you.

There was no guarantee that someone had the flush, but you have a very strong flush suited board with 2 people ahead of you betting 80x the big blind combined. I think it's safe to assume your up against a flush.

Can you please explain how on earth there is no long term advantage in getting MORE than 3 times back on a 1/3 chance to hit? Its basic pot odds...

[Cocco_Bill]

Here some examples:

Example1)

Pot 25$:

opponent is all in for 50$ and has the flush against your set

here you do not have odds to call 50/125 > 33%

Example 2)

Pot 25$


2 opponents holding a flush go all in for 50$ each against your set

Here you have odds to call 50/175 < 33%

With 3 opponents and the same scenario, calling gives you even better odds...

[Rondavu]

Your absolutely right. If you play a similar hand three times, chances are your going to make some money given the pot odds. Given that I concede to your very valid point, I may surprise you by saying I still don't make this call.

The odds are against you winning this hand. You can win money by gambling with this hand and getting payed when you finally hit a 33% draw with a similar sized pot at 10¢/25¢. You can also make long term money by not taking those long shot bleeders with pot odds, but instead only putting money in the center when you are in more favorable short term circumstances. Do you see where I'm going? There's more than one way to get +EV. Your approach seems to invite a considerable amount of variance. I mean it isn't like a fish won't come calling down your jacks and queens with his pair of two's at that level within 5 hands.

[Cocco_Bill]

Your absolutely right. If you play a similar hand three times, chances are your going to make some money given the pot odds. Given that I concede to your very valid point, I may surprise you by saying I still don't make this call.

The odds are against you winning this hand. You can win money by gambling with this hand and getting payed when you finally hit a 33% draw with a similar sized pot at 10¢/25¢. You can also make long term money by not taking those long shot bleeders with pot odds, but instead only putting money in the center when you are in more favorable short term circumstances. Do you see where I'm going? There's more than one way to get +EV. Your approach seems to invite a considerable amount of variance. I mean it isn't like a fish won't come calling down your jacks and queens with his pair of two's at that level within 5 hands.

fair enough. However my approach is such that I will do what I think is +EV every time I possibly can as my bankroll can take the variance.

[TylerK]

Your absolutely right. If you play a similar hand three times, chances are your going to make some money given the pot odds. Given that I concede to your very valid point, I may surprise you by saying I still don't make this call.

The odds are against you winning this hand. You can win money by gambling with this hand and getting payed when you finally hit a 33% draw with a similar sized pot at 10¢/25¢. You can also make long term money by not taking those long shot bleeders with pot odds, but instead only putting money in the center when you are in more favorable short term circumstances. Do you see where I'm going? There's more than one way to get +EV. Your approach seems to invite a considerable amount of variance. I mean it isn't like a fish won't come calling down your jacks and queens with his pair of two's at that level within 5 hands.

This is 100% the wrong way to look at poker, sorry. EV is EV, there are no shades of gray.

[Rondavu]

Your getting caught up in EV Tyler. The only right way to look at poker, is the way that makes you a substantial amount of money. Whichever way that may be. The EV numbers don't lie. I understand that Tyler. I'll sacrifice +EV call opportunities in big underdog pots as long as I continue making a great amount of money sitting in front of a computer. Who needs the huge variance? I could care less about that pot. It scares me. I'm sensitive. I'm also afraid of heights, deep water, and hairy women.

+EV underdog hand temptations like this are the drug pusher on the corner going "Come on man, try some. It'll make you fly man!" In other words, do I take the plunge for a quick high, but risk my short term bankroll, or do I take a longer more stable approach to a healthy bankroll, and in the mean time save the cardiac arrest?

+EV is about the maximum amount of profit over the longterm. It is a concept blind to anomalies such as short term downswings which consistently defy your EV. Some people accept the downswings, and think "Oh well, it'll all work out in the longrun". What they should do is stop taking longterm +EV longshots and their bankroll will thank them. They can then expect a stable increase, and plan around their expected cashouts.

[faustas]

seriously... if you see some people win a big hand because he hit a 2pair with his q3o, you better encourage him to play like that more... the odds are on your side if you play tight in the long term!

Just like what phil hellmuth wrote on his book about the beginning of his poker career... Supertight is tight!

[TylerK]

Your getting caught up in EV Tyler. The only right way to look at poker, is the way that makes you a substantial amount of money. Whichever way that may be. The EV numbers don't lie. I understand that Tyler. I'll sacrifice +EV call opportunities in big underdog pots as long as I continue making a great amount of money sitting in front of a computer. Who needs the huge variance? I could care less about that pot. It scares me. I'm sensitive. I'm also afraid of heights, deep water, and hairy women.

+EV underdog hand temptations like this are the drug pusher on the corner going "Come on man, try some. It'll make you fly man!" In other words, do I take the plunge for a quick high, but risk my short term bankroll, or do I take a longer more stable approach to a healthy bankroll, and in the mean time save the cardiac arrest?

+EV is about the maximum amount of profit over the longterm. It is a concept blind to anomalies such as short term downswings which consistently defy your EV. Some people accept the downswings, and think "Oh well, it'll all work out in the longrun". What they should do is stop taking longterm +EV longshots and their bankroll will thank them. They can then expect a stable increase, and plan around their expected cashouts.

Sacrificing EV is fishy, regardless of what your rationale is. "I just like to gamble" is a reason to chase a gutshot without odds to do so, but that doesn't make it correct.

[arkana]

Sacrificing EV because you cannot handle the variance sounds to me like you dont have a big enough bankroll.

If you sacrifice EV you are losing money but if you feel more comfortable playing that way then stick to it.

I can think of two valid reasons to sacrifice EV:
-your bankroll isnt big enough
-losing the hand is going to affect your play in future hands

Why would you rather play those hands in tournaments? In tournaments you should maximize your chances of winning the tournament not your +EV per hand (in the context of pot odds). If calling the bet is going to hurt your stack then you dont want to call with a 33% chance of winning the hand even though you have sufficient pot odds. 67% of the times you will lose that pot and with it cripple your stack and your odds of winning the tournament (and actually making a profit).

And why would you call one person and not two?

[ekillian]

I think making the call in a tournament would just have to depend on the players preference. But I don't understand how someone would call this in a tournament but not a cash game. You can't reload in a tourney. Now everything (or close to it) is riding on this draw. And if you miss "that's [probably] all folks"

[ihategnomes]

Sacrificing EV because you cannot handle the variance sounds to me like you dont have a big enough bankroll.

The more you suck, the less apt you should be to push smaller -EV situations as well. But then again, if you are aware of - and + EV situations, you shouldnt suck too bad.

[drmcboy]

Don't get you may have the best hand PLUS a 33 % chance to make a full even if the flush gets there. Surely there is a 10, 15 % chance you have the best hand... with those odds it is tough to say no... look at the hand here - guy's making a big move because he thinks he has a pair plus a draw, little does he no the A is no help. I'm not wild about the 9 high draw but I I had, say, AJ with the Js I might make this play, with AK Ks I'd make it for sure.