Party SnGs

[m3laNcholy]

Anyone has any advice on how to play at the party SnGs?

I play $10+1 and sometimes $20+2 and I find that 800 chips stacks are way too small.

Also blinds go up every ten hands not over time.

So with 800 on chips I usually find out that if you get involved once and you lose (best case sth like 300) then you are into "all-in mode". You cant bluff and you cant protect your hand. You cant pay to draw your OESD or flush.

Then the games reaches that disgusting stage where the blinds reach sth like 200 or 300 and there are four people with +-2k in chips.
People go all-in all the time cause the blinds are huge, if you call or raise with a 2k stack and you lose you are dead. So you wait for an Ace and push and hope they fold or you win a coinflip. Otherwise you are blinded out.

I am doing pretty well but I think is mostly luck. I play well I reach 1600-1800 chips mid-time but then when the blinds go up people go all-in one after the other and we suddenly reach the "4 players left" scenario. And I am never certain I will make it to the money.

Basically I play "tight" (hand guidelines in Fnord's post). If am lucky enought and get the cards I might double up twice and reach 3k. But then again its not certain I am ITM. Few times I I have reached 4k by the time we are 4 left and that were the only easy times I was ITM. But that was luck. I had KK twice and hit middle sets after calling a raise from AA/KK/AK.

Also I think 1 on 1 at party with blinds at 400/800 is just a joke.

Sorry for the long post but any thoughts would be apreciated cause I am getting really frustrated with party SnGs.Its like 4th/3rd/3rd/4th/2nd/1st/3rd/3rd/3rd/3rd....

PS: Today was 4th/4th/4th/4th. (classic 4 people, push with AQs run into AA and the like)

[Chicago_Kid]

Sorry for the long post but any thoughts would be apreciated cause I am getting really frustrated with party SnGs.Its like 4th/3rd/3rd/4th/2nd/1st/3rd/3rd/3rd/3rd....

PS: Today was 4th/4th/4th/4th. (classic 4 people, push with AQs run into AA and the like)

You sound very m3laNcholy...

I was in the same space last year. Got so many 4ths it about drove me insane. If you are getting a lot of 4ths, I could see a couple reasons:
1) You are not aggressive at the mid-point, and you dwindle towards the end. Then, you come into the "bubble" stage with very few chips.
2) You come into the bubble with a good stack and play not to lose. Thus, depending on the competition, you let yourself get blinded down and possibly get forced into mistakes if the remaining players are tough.
3) You take unnecessary chances on the bubble, and get yourself wounded.
4) Your entire game is not aggressive enough.
5) You do not know your opponents well enough at the end.

For me, 1 and 4 most directly applied, until I dialed up my aggression.

Those tourneys do move fast, and if you get a bad beat or no cards for a while, you might be dead. With that said, here are some things for you to consider:
1) How would you rate your aggression? Are you betting 60% of the pot and higher a lot? Are you finding yourself call on draws alot? You need to be careful about betting small. When you have a hand, invest BIG, and make a better hand show strength so you can get a read. Also, always make sure to bet any draws off the pot if you can. Harrington covers this very will in his Vol I book.

2) How well do you "know" the other players at the table? Are you watching them closely? Watching for rocks? Watching for calling stations? Knowing these things (particularly those to the sides of you) can save your life in those short tourneys.

Here are some guidelines I try to use:
EARLY:
- Early, play extremely tight, but play every hand in your head. I.e., watch and learn about every player! If you are watching closely--after 20-25 hands you usually know who's weak/tight, TAG, terrible, etc. The tourneys are too short to miss any information, so pay attention to every hand. When I lose, this is probably my #1 reason why---because I was spacing out.
- Early, do not call AI's early w/o the nuts or near nuts.
- DO NOT bluff early.

MID:
- Throughout the tourney, almost NEVER call, and be careful on value bets. Don't let an idiot call you down, and hit on the river. Bet hard and make him run away. If you do call, make it a strong draw that you are likely to hit on the next street. This will help you later when you do hit a big hand, your big bets will be called!
- Watch the players around you closely--lean on those who are passive/tight.
- Some might disagree, but I think that if you win a pot w/o a SD and have a big hand, show it sometimes. This will get respect from inexperienced players IMO...particularly if you were playing tight early. After this you probably will be able to steal when the blinds go up. Since the tourney is so short, you DO NOT usually want people looking you up on your hands, thus showing a strong hand can buy you some credibility that is very important later. Since monsters are pretty rare, usually you are trying to scare people out, rather than induce a call, so respect is paramount.
- The imporant thing at the mid-point is NOT TO RELAX. If you get 2k chips, you need to continue to accumulate chips, so keep watching players and trying to use your size to bully when possible.
- Do NOT mess with people (e.g., showing huge bluffs, talking smack, critical commentary, etc.). If you are a dick, you might have the whole table trying to knock you out. This is not a good way to enter the bubble, as people will take more chances to get you...and they will!

LATE:
- Later in the tourney, you may need to steal depending on the competition and your stack. When you do, bluff like you mean it, and use position as your leverage here. Also, this is where you need to be consistent with your previous strong bets with a holding. If you vary this pattern, someone might get curious and look you up.
- Also, on bluffing, pure bluffs are overrated in this SNG's. Don't get cute trying to take down a pot with "the hammer". Most of these tourneys are weak enough that you can wait for pretty good cards to take a shot. It's ridiculous when people try to steal with 27o out of position, and then get called.

ON THE END:
- Buckle in, and use your previous knowledge to crush.
- If you are ahead, DO NOT let people see flops cheap...RAISE. Make them choke if they don't bite back. This is critical, IMO.
- Finally, if on the bubble (4-5 left), don't take ANY chances calling AI's unless you are way ahead. If there are four left, let the others kill each other, don't try to knock someone out such that if you miss, you might be in danger.
- Now, if you are behind, or in a dog fight with other stacks, put pressure on anyone that's smaller then you. If really small, just look for pre-flop AI's to steal or dbl up.
- Continue to bet strong to uphold your image. If this means going AI with a pretty strong holding, do it, if you are short stacked.

I would be interested in hearing other critiques of my comments...sorry for the long post. Hope this helps.

[Chicago_Kid]

I didn't really cover the ITM play, which I will leave to someone else. My post was mainly concerned with getting INTO the money!

[drmcboy]

Poker Stars or UB give 1500 chips to start and the blinds are time rather than hand based. I've never gone back to party after trying their SNGs. Still some luck factor - more with the Turbos, which play about like normal PP SNGs - but you can at least get in and play a few hands before you hit AI or fold mode.

[jak]

....

nice post! i can only agree.

[FiveAnglz]

So happy to find this post as I focus mainly on SNG's and PP is where I play so I'd love to ask & add....and actually I started playing there again because of Strangebird's post from a while back. Now I mainly play the 20 and 30 SNGs and with nearly 100 games logged I make the money about 58% of the time (dont worry the losses are catchin up thats why I need help!!!! I'm aware that 40% is the target mark so I have no illusions. So that said...Chi excellent stuff man as I can't disaggree with anything, but I'd like to throw out 1 thing for starters. What does anyone think about limping in position ONLY durning level 1 with strong multiway hands....ATs/A9s, JTs, even KJs, with the idea that you will release the hand if you only make a pair and smell possible danger, as losing upto 80 chips is not terrible with the reward being the possibility of @1000 chips?

I mention that because the major question I ask deals with the fact that in 75% of the SNG's that I play, I am forced to come from behind the 8 ball, usually being down to 650 by level 3. For the past 2 weeks my cards have been erratic, and I'm trying to find the optimum work around when I'm not getting anything (A8 UTG or K9 in the CO). In a nutshell, I very rarely every 'call' any bet after lev 1, unless I have solid values. My philosophy behind this is that I would rather spend the chips on a 3xBB raise in late position with and Ace, for example, when I am first into the pot so I add fold equity to my bet, instead of just calling and needing to hit a flop 35% of the time. So that said, obviously my life blood is blind stealing, usually from the CO or button, with a 2.5 - 3XBB size....the last major point I'll mention about my game in the hopes that someone can rip it apart so I can reconstruct a better one is that when there are 4 left, I always try to let someone else call an opponents raise, as I find that they will make a mistake before I will....this is especially true if I am in 3rd place or better....I've even layed down 88 to an AI that could have crippled me when I was in the BB...even though I placed 1st in that tourney is this wrong?

I know I'm rambling but I'm trying to add info while painting a picture of my game so I can get guidence, so please forgive me. The last question I have deals with bluffing from Mid Tourney to the money. My overall style would be (I guess) solid/tight aggressive.....I play solid values but I usually bet aggressively regardless of whether the flop actually hit me, as long as my preflop actions and current board allow for my continuation bet to be 'sellable' ...i.e. if I PF raise 99 4xBB and an A hits, I'll bet 1/2-2/3 pot on the flop against 1 opponent hoping to sell AK....and will also fire the second barrell if I like the situation. BUT this is what I do at Stars with 1500 starting chips....at PP I do this MUCH less frequently as usually comming from 650 chips, one mistake and I'm in bad shape. Furthermore, when my opponent leads into me with a smallish bet on the flop and I feel that he is bluffing, I either raise right there or even just smooth call to setup a steal on a later street. Again I very rarely ever do this at PP.....could someone give me some insight on this matter. Obviously, if I could find myself with 2K plus chips by level 3/4 then I would be comfortable....but this playing catchup is very difficult. And I dont know if this is normal have so little chips at that juncture, but my cards have been cool for so long, and this is they way most of my SNG's have panned out, victories included.

Basically I think I've followed Strangebirds philosophy very closely but I would love to know where I could improve to better my chip position during these tourneys.....and if I could be of any use to somebody, I'd be glad to as I do at least take the game seriously.

Thx all

[drmcboy]

Generally the strat you describe is good, especially your inclination to raise rather than call, keep that in the forefront of your mind.

At a high level, tight players are more likely to get blinded out, which it sounds like is your problem. Would you rather have that happen or go the other way? Aggresive players are more likely to generate big stacks early and thus start leaning on the small stacks, but also more likely to bust early.

If the money were equal, would you rather finish 1st, 8th, 7th, 6th 10th in your next 4 tourneys or 3/2/5/4/2? Neither one is wrong, but the latter is more likely if you are tight, the former if you loosen up.

You also have to consider the table - if 2-3 folks are raising every pot, it will probably be more profitable to play tight, regardless of your normal style, and vice versa.... if no one's raising, you should be!