Goodbye SNGs

[black666]

I've been playing 0.05$/0.10$ ringgames for the last few weeks and have been doing pretty good (+35$). After reading DavSimon's strategy guide, I thought about giving SNGs a try - I had the bankroll (15x buy-in), the confidence from my ring-game sessions and the hope of building my bankroll even faster.

So I played my first 5$ 2-table SNG ... I did pretty well at the beginning, ranging always between 1. and 9. position. Midway through the tournament I got beaten on the river for a megapot, and folded/limped my way to the final table from then on --> 7th place

Ok, this wasn't so bad, just a bad beat and only 3 places away from the money (+ final table on my first SNG). So there I went for my 2nd SNG. This time I did really good. Winning with some nice odds, having some good reads (cashing some chips from calling stations and people drawing dead against their odds)...
So there I was again on the final table. I was having the chiplead with two other players and we were pushing the other stacks around, stealing blinds, bluffing with crap and so on. That was some fun
But then my armageddon hand came:

PokerStars Game #1611938231: Tournament #7479697, Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2005/04/30 - 10:50:16 (ET)
Table '7479697 2' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: black666 (5305 in chips)
Seat 2: elkman61 (1025 in chips)
Seat 4: MooseMcCoy (4530 in chips)
Seat 5: JDoll (2005 in chips)
Seat 7: Guelph (5210 in chips)
Seat 8: reflex41 (3540 in chips)
Seat 9: normyd (5385 in chips)
black666: posts the ante 25
elkman61: posts the ante 25
MooseMcCoy: posts the ante 25
JDoll: posts the ante 25
Guelph: posts the ante 25
reflex41: posts the ante 25
normyd: posts the ante 25
elkman61: posts small blind 100
MooseMcCoy: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to black666 [6h Th]
JDoll: folds
Guelph: folds
reflex41: folds
normyd: calls 200
black666: calls 200

Ok, maybe this was my first mistake ..

elkman61: folds
MooseMcCoy: checks
*** FLOP *** [Ks 3h 7h]
MooseMcCoy: checks
normyd: bets 200
black666: raises 1400 to 1600

mistake 2? ... I was trying to push them off this pot. I had the stack to afford this move and was on a flush draw...

MooseMcCoy: folds
normyd: raises 3560 to 5160 and is all-in
black666: calls 3480 and is all-in

ok, so what was I thinking here? I don't know. I'm putting all my chips for 50% pot odds with only a 35% chance of making my 10high flush. I was calculating the odds the whole tournament making only smart moves, but on this hand my brain turned off. Maybe I got so greedy, that I really wanted to double up

*** TURN *** [Ks 3h 7h] [Qs]
*** RIVER *** [Ks 3h 7h Qs] [Ad]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
normyd: shows [As 7s] (two pair, Aces and Sevens)
black666: shows [6h Th] (high card Ace)
normyd collected 11035 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 11035 | Rake 0
Board [Ks 3h 7h Qs Ad]
Seat 1: black666 (button) showed [6h Th] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 2: elkman61 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: MooseMcCoy (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 5: JDoll folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Guelph folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: reflex41 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: normyd showed [As 7s] and won (11035) with two pair, Aces and Sevens

So there I go... again 7th place

Well I thought, this time I was the big stack on the final table and kicked myself out of the money. Expensive lesson, but I will do better next time.

So there I was, playing my next 5$ 2-table SNG 5 minutes later

Again I did well from the beginning..I was no chip leader but no small stack either. I waited for my cards, limped my way to some nice pots and was on my way to my 3rd final table.
Then, without warning, my stupidity came back. I'm holding AJo and limping to the flop. The flop comes 477 rainbow. Mistake1: I'm in this pot with 3 other players and I try to semi-bluff with two overcards and take the pot right there (5xBB). 2 players folded, the other one raises another 315 and is all-in. At this moment I should have known that something wasn't right...normally I do, but it seems that everytime there are many chips in the middle of the table I loose my focus, stop calculating odds and making reads. Anyway, I smooth call and loose to 3 sevens.

Again my stack was crippled and again I was pushed around by the other players. I've won some pot here and some pot there, but no more premium hands and only small pots. I made it to the final table and was knocked out after the blinds got too high and the antes kicked in.

--> again 7th place

Ok, this stinks. Maybe I need something with more action. There I was again on this forum and I read ripptyde's SNG strategy playing the turbo tables and being aggressive. Yeah, that sounds good, now I'm going for it.

There I was again, playing my 4th SNG this day, only this time a turbo 2-table SNG. ripptyde's strategy worked pretty well. I had some premium hands, but no opportunity to double up my stack, but still cashed in some nice pots. Midway through the tournament I was on a bad streak, the blinds kicked in, I got no cards and the big stacks started to play aggressive.
I managed to come to the final table, but I slowly became a small stack player and the big stacks were starting to push me around.
And finally the moment I was hoping for ... I was limping in from small blind with no raise before me. The flop comes, giving me a flush draw. I make a 5xBB bet, hoping to win it right there. One player calls .. the next card completes my flush. I see my chance to double up and push all-in. The other player calls. I see myself already as the winner, only to come down to earth at the showdown. My flush got beaten by a full house. Again final table, again 7th place.


So after 4 2-table SNGs I'm standing with 4 7th places. 2 times I just got unlucky and 2 times I kicked myself out of the tournament

I'm back playing 0.05$/0.10$ no-limit ring-games regaining my confidence

[JayUk]

just keep at them, they are the easist money to be earned at the $5 tables and also you will also feel the worse beats there(well in my case i do) but i'm up $200 playing the $5. The 6 ,10 was awful man what you doing calling a all in with ten high, But good luck anyway

[vqc]

You started your SNG experience with the beginning of the downswing portion. No worries. SNGs will be goot to you if play them right.
Dont limp with 6Ts. Thats my first piece of advice. Dont limp with shit, and you wont end up in a shitty finish.

[Estrop]

Remember at $5 SnGs, these players aren't very good. So they won't understand if your trying to bluff, they will just hold on to their top pair when there is a flush posibility out there. This is what makes them profitable. Don't get ahead of your skill level, don't give them to much credit.

[Aces]

You might try mastering the 1 table SNGs first. Takes a little less patience and time, and better chance for ITM since fewer players. There are also some sites with SNGs for < $5 which would give you more bang for the buck when getting started.

[DavSimon]

With 9 players left 10-6s is an instant fold in any position in a $5 SnG. If you simply must play it to achieve some inner peace then you absolute do not ever call with it....you have to raise....then rep the flop, whatever comes. If he comes over the top of you then simply let it go and move on. The biggest problem is that at the $5 level you will get a bunch of people drawing at flushes - for any price, so a T high flush will not be the winner often enough to warrant playing it.

In a $5 SnG there is no reason to ever limp A-J. In higher buy-in SnGs or particular MTT situations you may want to limp A-J, A-Q or A-K....but in a $5 SnG forget about tricky advanced trapping and stealing techniques....it is completely wasted on your opponents, they simply will not pick up on the subtle messages you are trying to send and it will get you into trouble far more often than it will pay you off.....often the whole reason for this is because they do not have experience. They have not seen how many times TPTK can lose to rags, they have not seen how many times a baby flush get beat by a bigger flush, they have not seen a boat get outdrawn to lose to a bigger boat or lost to set over set.....and most importantly they are not thinking about what you are holding...for the most part, all they see is what they are holding and what the pot size is.

What will make you succesful at this level is tight solid play which includes a huge amount of patience. 4 SnGs is a very small sample. I would recommend playing at least 10 $5 single-table SnGs this week, before you decide anything. Stay away from the 2-tables for a couple weeks and stay away from the turbos until you have place ITM in at least 30 SnGs....yes that seems like an arbitrary # but I chose it because by that time I would hope you have played 80-100 SnGs by then. You will have a better idea of how to play short handed and developed the patience it takes to play 2 table and 2 table turbos. I have been interupted about 1/2 dozen times while writing this so let me know if something doesn't make sense.

[black666]

Thanks for all comments so far.

Today I tried it again .. I played 3 $5 one table SnGs. In 2 of them I placed 7th again - I don't know what it is with the 7th place...7 SnGs und 6 7th places lol.

It's really weird, sometimes I get rivered and loose a major pot, the next time I have a premium hand, people are calling my big bets and I have to fold because the flop/turn/river gives me nothing.

Then there was my 3rd SnG. I played tight and had some fun. There was one player who made bets like crazy. Every 2nd hand he made pre-flop bets and as soon as people called, he made pot-sized bets on the flop and everyone folded. People were really scared. I waited and waited for my cards to come and nearly put him out of the tournament with 2 hands where I stonecold called his bets.
So we were down to 4 players - first 3 get paid. I was chipleader with about 8.000 chips, the rest all had about 1000-2000 in chips. I dominated the table betting nearly every hand. I couldn't believe how easy it was to steal blinds on that table.
Then bad luck hit me again. I called some all-ins, trying to put players out and lost EVERYONE of them. And I really had good odds, but somehow the miracle board kept my opponents alive. I was down to a medium stack, only to work my way up again. I regained the chip lead and lost some all-ins again. It's crazy - I don't think that I can go on tilt, but I'was as near as I can ever be
Finally someone gets eliminated and I follow him after a few hands taking 3rd place.

At least I have 1 ITM SnG, but I should have easily made 1st or 2nd or made it ITM on one of the other two.

I know now, why it is so important to have a 15x buy-in bankroll, it's incredible how long a downswing can last.
Plus I think I'm too smart sometimes for the 5$ SnG .. I play with pot odds, know my starting hands, I'm constantly trying to improve my play (I'm reading "Hold'Em Poker For Advanced Players" by Sklansky and Malmuth for example) and get beaten all the time by maniacs calling pre-flop bets with 38 suited because they wanna draw a flush.

That's it for today..I'll analyze my hands in pokertracker, look for holes or bad calls and try another 2 or 3 SnG tomorrow.

Thanks for helping so far...

[drmcboy]

I dominated the table betting nearly every hand. I couldn't believe how easy it was to steal blinds on that table.
I called some all-ins, trying to put players out and lost EVERYONE of them.

You've ID'd a problem right here. If you are dominating the table, why call AIs unless you're fairly sure you are dominating? Let's say it's a 1 table SNG and you're down to 4-5 with a huge chip lead, just like you describe. Your stack should allow you to take about 2 out of every 5 hands worth of blinds or so, maybe more. If you do that, your stack will be increasing while the rest of the table is whittled down. Let the rest of the table run their AJs against 66, you don't need to get into coin flips. Plus most people will tighten up with 4-5 left, but then they'll play fast once you get down to 3. That's not what you want, you want to maintain the bubble so everyone keeps giving you the pots so they can make it to the money.

Now if you're getting big pairs beat there is nothing you can do about it, long term that won't keep happening.

'I don't think that I can go on tilt'

You'll be the first poker player to accomplish this!

[DavSimon]

Thanks for putting it so aptly drmcboy....saves me some typing, you nailed it.

'I don't think that I can go on tilt'

This is something you will simply have to take on faith....You can and eventually will tilt....it is something we all struggle against, but it is a struggle we are destined to fail because of how we are wired. We all have this sense of fairness and justice that lives in the back of our mind....we all try to make sense out of random occurances. The problem is that poker is not fair and there is not discernable pattern to how the cards fall. Just because you lost with K-K four times in a row does not mean you are "due' a win with that hand....each hand is an independent event, and that is where tilt lives.....your brain intellectually knowing something but emotionally your are disappointed and feel as though you were somehow treated unfairly yet again. Random occurance + emotional investment x time = tilt.

No one wants to admit they are weak or susceptable to tilt, the ones that cannot honestly examine thier state of mind are destined to lose a whole lot of money over time. The ones that can step back and say I have lost my objective approach to this game, are the ones that can recognize thier own human weaknesses...deal with them....and then move past them.

[Rondavu]

2 table $5 sit and go's are a little different. Your going to have at least 8 decent players. It becomes more important to take notes. How's your awareness? I'm not a super advanced player yet, but I find certain things out very quickly...

My two main notes are...
LD-Will lay down
CS-Calling station

This you must figure out fast so that you can attack the people that lay down easily, and bet into the calling stations with the best hand instead of slowplaying them. How effectively do you play the players? That's how you get to the money.

Another important note I keep...

AGB-Aggressive Bluffer

I trap these suckers all day long. So if your not aware of who to attack, who to trap, and who to milk, your not playing smart enough to win.

Forgive me if your already doing these things, but it just seems your employing a raw method of playing the cards instead of the people. It's hard to break the pinata with a blindfold on. Get your info and use it.

[Aces]

drmcboy said it well...don't become KingKong and play every pot or call every AI just because you have a huge stack. You want to use your stack to your advantage, but do it wisely. This is a big leak that you need to look at. Study your hand histories and see if this is a recurring theme.

And as Dav said, yes you will go on Tilt. Recognize the signs and take appropriate action(which usually means taking a break, whether that's a few hours or several weeks).

Haven't really added anything new here, but these are two good points and I wanted to emphasize them.

[ponyboy]

Just from my limited experience (about 50-75 low level SNG's)

Don't bluff - most of the people will call things right to the river and fluke out half the time. They know nothing about odds and outs. You also can't read hands easily because some people will call with ANYTHING.

DavSimon made some very good points. I had good luck in the first while just folding right up until Round 3 and then playing from there. Usually there were at least 3 people gone already and it is much easier. Take detailed notes on all your opponents too throughout. Sometimes they will pop up at another tourney and you will already have a read. And as much as I like Rippy's advice - being aggressive works for some, and not for others - learn your own style.

Hate to say it also but it sounds like you need to learn how to let hands go. If someone raises you all in - especially on the river - sometimes you have to take a serious look at your hand and just fold even though it tastes like crap. I can't tell you how many times I have folded a river hand in 4th or 5th place and the table goes crazy and all of a sudden you're ITM in 2nd or 3rd. The blinds will rarely ever get you out. Make them beat you - don't beat yourself. Good luck!

[black666]

I'm starting to get the picture. I'm coming from another SnG and placed 2nd ... I played pretty good until heads up. I had about 2.000 in chips and my opponent was the leader with about 12.000. He played very tight, so I could push him around, steal blinds and so on, until I became the chipleader with about 10.000 ... then my habit of playing king-kong came through again and I lost the next 3 all-ins (in 2 of them I was about >70% favorite and lost on the river ) - guess that's one of my holes I need to work on.

thanks for all your tips ... this forum is priceless!