Reads in SnG's

[Robert]

Ok, I've found out, that this is were my game is really lacking - I have come to experience that reading the other players at the table is one of the most important skills in poker, but I just simply seem to lack in this skill - it may be lack of experience (only played online poker for one month, I only play the $10 SnG at pacific).

So how do you guys read other players in online poker (especially in SnGs or tourneys)? What do you look for when trying to get a read on a player?
When I play I try to stay focused on the table even when I've folded my cards, and I generally look for players who raise a lot preflop (aggressive), players who fold all their cards (tight), players who raise a lot and often when it goes to a showdown they just have rags (aggressive players who likes to bluff/steal).
but with ten players at the table I find it very hard to get a good read on the players this way. After a couple of orbits in the first hands in a SnG i generally only have an "idea" on how a couple of players play (often only 2 or 3 players), and my reads are only like "Ok this guy called the other players allin with just TPTK" and "this guy seems aggressive, but when it has come to a showdown he has only had good cards". And I really dont dare to relly 100% on such kind of reads because they seem pretty inaccurate to me.
Help! - What to do to become better at reading the other players? I think this not only interrests me, but also a lot of other players on this board. Or maybe theres anoter topic on this on the board that I've overlooked?

And a final question - how much to depend on reads? Late in a SnG when I find myself having a pretty good read on another player, I'm often afraid to depend on my read, because I have busted out very often when trying to depending on a read - fx when a person reraised me allin, when i had JJ or something and I thought "Damn this guys is aggressive, he has tried many times to bluff ppl out prf (or at least thats how it seemed to me), he has rags, I'm calling him", and then he shows his QQ, KK og whatever nice cards he has.

[drmcboy]

more experience certainly will help, the more often your reads are right the more you'll learn to trust them.

I think the stuff you listed is about right - another good thing to note is bet amounts, especially after they have raised the pot. Is it always pot sized, 1/2 PS, depends on texture of board, etc. Are they the type to always bet the flop if the raise, will they check if they miss, check raise if they hit, etc.

generally you're not going to get perfect info from a 45-90 miunte SNG, but every little bit helps.

Having said that there is no rule against aggresive players picking up KK - that's the good thing about being aggresive, you're more likely to get paid off when you actually have a hand. The price is you have to give up some chips when you get re-raised with your A6o or 87s.

To use your example if some guy has raised the last 3-4 pots short handed and you pick up JJ, you should more over the top pretty much every time. If he has QQ KK AA, that's poker.

[vqc]

I keep track of every play someone makes. WHen they showdown a hand I look back and see how they played the flop the turn and the river. DId they check top pair decent kicker? Did they Bet top pair no kicker? Did they make a continuation bet when they raised preflop?

At some point you will have to learn to trust your reads. There is nothing you can do about it. At some point you will get used to recognizing stuff and your poker sense will tingle. TINGLE!!!!

[ADWCTA]

Reads will generally only help you until you're down to 4-5 players.
At that point (or sometimes before that if it's a slow game and the blinds get high early), most players change thier game up. You'll be hard pressed to find a player who plays the same way all the way through. At that point, your reads should deal more with "% atmpt to steal blinds" and "% defends BB."

Anyway, I find that generally, bad players (players who usually finish ITM at a low rate, plays loose, calling machines) get really conservative when it's down to 4-5 players.

For first orbit reads, I rely on pokerprophecy (i play on PartyPoker). I assume Fishes will call you more often so don't bluff against them, and never assume they have good preflop hands even when they call my pre-flop raise. Fishies who go all in usually have a monster though. For Experts, I will often try to buy the pot on the flop and rep the ace.

For early/mid game reads (after one orbit usually), I rely on PokerOffice, which basically is a computer who sits nexts to you and tracks every play. (preflop raise%, flops seen%, bet on flop%, folded to bet on river%, etc). It also shows you how each player plays each hand (that they show).

For late game reads, I just go by instinct and occasionally glance at the stats "defends BB to steal%" for reference. Here, I think it's really all about how good your poker instincts are (and whether you get cards). Just be aggressive at the right times and don't be afraid of a coinflip (unless there's 4 left and you're 3rd largest stack, and one of the large stacks likes to play policeman).

[arkana]

For early/mid game reads (after one orbit usually), I rely on PokerOffice, which basically is a computer who sits nexts to you and tracks every play. (preflop raise%, flops seen%, bet on flop%, folded to bet on river%, etc). It also shows you how each player plays each hand (that they show).

This is probably a different topic but I have a moral objection to this kind of live tracking software just because I can see where this is heading and it will pretty much destroy online poker. "The probability of player A stealing is 87%, suggestion: reraise all in." Its not there yet but I can see it happening.

It will lead to lazier players who rely on software for their reading of other players. I suppose ppl would learn to adapt to that and play accordingly but Id hate to see ppl losing trust in online poker (the fear of playing against semi bots).

[RHCNNN]

I have been doing really well at $10 SnGs lately, and a lot of my reads that help me take down pots I have no right to are based on betting patterns, not player type.

I ask myself "what would a reasonable player do if he had ____?"

For example, If I'm in a pot with 3 other people, maybe it has been slightly raised preflop, maybe not, I'm in last position, and the flop comes K47 with 2 diamonds....
Now, somebody with a King is going to bet here to protect his hand against the flush. If it gets checked around to me I will always bet around pot size (regardless of what cards i have) because I figure they aren't protecting a king, and if I had one this is how much I would bet to do so.

Usually the reasoning is correct and I will take it down right there.

If I get a caller then I think he may have a draw, so if the next card comes completely irrelevant to the flop (10 clubs) and he checks it to me I will put down a large bet again.

Again, usually this takes it down. However if I get another call I slow down. He may have a huge hand and is slowplaying (trips, or maybe he even thinks that his top pair is worthy of slowplaying).

If he checks the river, which is no help to any probable draw he had then a half-3/4 pot bet is what I put out. I reason that if he did have a good hand he probably would'nt be checking his last chance to get money in the pot... and making a slightly smaller bet makes it look like you WANT a call.

Of course sometimes people call you down with middle pair, maybe because they have a good read on YOU, but more than likely they're just calling stations at the $10 SnGs. Now you can note that this player will pay you off when you have a real hand, and go after him accordingly.

On the flip side, if somebody put out a bet on that flop I would most likely fold (unless I have a draw &/or correct odds), because it makes sense that he would bet with a king, and go with that.


Also, remember that reads aren't about making elaborate CRAZY bluffs, they're about figuring out what the opponent most likely has, and what you most likely will be able to get away with "knowing" what he has, or knowing when you should fold based on what you believe he has.