Heads Up Tips?

[ADWCTA]

Anyone?

20+2 SnG

I seem to suck at HU and place first at a really low rate compared to 2nd.
I used to play HU really tight (wait for a good hand like pocket pair, KQ, KJ, or AT-AK). After getting to 2nd, I placed first about 25% (note: I'm usually slightly understacked, 3k to his 6k with 1k in blinds on the table.
Then, I switched it up and started being very aggresive (preflop raise with Ax, pocket pairs, KQ-K8, QJ-Q9, and bet postflop regardless of flop if either I have Ace high or there's an Ace on the flop or I have pocket pair). However, I often get caught and lose the game right there. I'm hitting an even lower right now because one bad coinflip and I'm out, whereas I need two good coinflips to win. (And since I'm so aggresive, opponants hand dominates mine more often than vice versa).
I know HU is a lot of luck, but I'm pretty sure that I'm doing something terribly wrong.

Any tips for HU play? (note: I don't consider reads because everyone plays HU differently than they normally play unless you're a very very bad player, in which case, you wouldn't make it to HU on a 20+2 SnG in the first place)

[The_Cheat]

Umm.. ya, i got some pointers for you.

"Then, I switched it up and started being very aggresive (preflop raise with Ax, pocket pairs, KQ-K8, QJ-Q9, and bet postflop regardless of flop if either I have Ace high or there's an Ace on the flop or I have pocket pair)"

I dont consider that to be aggressive at all. I like to preflop raise just about every hand. The key to playing good poker is making your opponent make hard/poor descisions. Never let him limp HU. When I am HU with a guy, i try to always either Bet/Raise or Fold. I am either in a pot, or out of a pot. I will NEVER check (unless i flopped something ridiculous, and was playing against a guy like Rada, who i knew would bet strong into me, and I was planning on check-raising him) but even if that happened, i would probably still bet, so as not to tip him off.

Look at it this way. There are two ways you can take down a pot.
1- You showdown the better hand
2- Your opponent folds

There is not much you can control about the showdown of best hands. The cards will fall as they will fall, but I like to think that HU, If every hand went to showdown, I would have the best hand, half the time. If you both just post blinds and check to the river, your HU is never going to end. Bet that shit and make him fold. I think Rippy brought that up on another thread somewhere, that you always want the extra "out" of your opponent folding. If you check into him, he is never gonna be like "oh shit, he checked, i am gonna fold" That isnt going to happen. If you bet into him, he might just throw it away. The key, and anyone on here will tell you this, to being good Heads Up, is being Hella aggro, but knowing when to put on the brakes. That is all. Bet it out, but if you know your beat, and you wont be able to get him to fold, lay it down. Dont ever Call, or Check. Always Raise, or Fold

[iwa]

I disagree with the cheat to a degree. His point about fold equity, with the extra out of folding is completely correct though. On that note, I start in with my opinion.... Calling and checking is appropriate preflop, and in certain situations post flop. Calling and checking heads up often allows you to outplay your opponent on the flop. Being agressive is a solid key to playing HU, but I think playing smart is very important. Play your opponent, it's a skill, pushing allin every hand is just a fools move, and you will find that people will begin doing this to you when you start learning to out play opponents.

[Fleece]

raise raise raise raise raise and raise some more

[ADWCTA]

Cheat:
yeah, raise, be aggressive.

but since there's no position involved, raise with what? nothing?

at 20+2 SnG, whenever I raise, the other guy usually either folds or pushes all in. If I raise with crap, I'm usually pretty committed at this point and it'll be worth the pot odds even if I call his all in with 23o.

remember, I'm usually outstacked 1:2 and the blinds at Party Poker at this point are about 1/5th - 1/7th my stack. After a raise, the pot will be the size of my stack or at least 3/4th the size. There's really no room for error. If I raise preflop, I'm in the hand for good no matter what he does, unless I should just give up 50% of my stack.

and I never call or check, what gave you that idea? my entire post was about raising.

If you preflop raise all the time, your opponant's going to catch on and re-raise you one of these days. Then, you're pot committed and have to go all in with whatever hand you have or lose about half your stack. So therefore, you can't preflop raise 100% of the time.

I can thus do one of two things: Raise randomly when I have nothing and always raise when i have something. Or. Raise only when I have something. There are NO OTHER FACTORS in HU besides the relationship between your stack size and your opponant's stack size. If you recommend raising randomly preflop when you have nothing, what % would you raise randomly when you have nothing? (I can do the whole "if first card is a spade raise, otherwise don't" thing). But what %?

Iwa:
I don't understand the stratagy of calling a preflop raise. If you call, you're going to act second. Now if he's stupid, he'll check to you postflop (but that's stupid and we're assuming that you have to be semi-smart to make it to the HU stage of the SnG). However, he'll more often than not make a bet and since you're committed to the pot by calling the preflop raise (after min. preflop raise called, my stack would be = to the pot size), you either push him all in, or you fold. At any situation, he could be raising preflop with nothing, or with something good, so you can have no reads on his cards, thus the flop would not help you in any way. If you hit something, obviously go all in. If you don't hit anything, what do you do? fold? Since your max chance of hitting anything is around 40% if you don't have PP, wouldn't it be better to just push him all in preflop and try to scare him off that way, rather than wait for the flop?

Remember, this is PartyPoker with 8k chips in total, and blinds are usually cumulative 650 chips - 1k chips at this point. Unless the two players are compeltely equally split, ANY preflop raise would put one of the players in a pot committed position.

[vqc]

ok heres a trick, since its a relaly good trick ill leave it up to you to figure out what i mean

here i updated it
its a sequence of events where he acts first
preflop bet call
flop: bet call
turn: bet call
river: check raise fold

[ADWCTA]

I'll take that to mean alternate between betting and calling.
When the flop comes (if he calls your bet or if he checks your call), first check to him and then if he checks raise, if he bets fold?
(Damn you, I'm gonna spend all day now trying to figure out what you really meant).

I'll try that out when i get a chance. Just lost another HU: Even chip distribution. He raised all in with AQ, I called with AT. BB = 1/8th of my stack.

So the question is, (still), when do you call your opponent? what cards are good enough? (this particular situation was just me being stupid since he's only raised about 25% of his hands at HU... I figured he had something good, hoping it was a bluff or a low pocket pair... I was wrong).

[vqc]

preflop when do you call your opponent?

crap one thing i didnt point out was that this happens when its a heads up match.
blinds are 5/10, stacks are at 1000
he rasies to 30, you see K5s, I call. You see 89o, I call, 47o, I call.

when the blinds are huge in relation to your stacks, like REALLY BIG. LIke poker superstars invitaitonal 2 big where theyre going all in everyhand. Ax is a goot hand to go all in on. Kx is a good hand to go all in on. Suited connectors are good hands to go all in on.

In my opinion, Heads up is all about representing the hand, that is one better htan the hand your opponent has. Hes holding onto a set, and you make him think you hit that flush.

When you raising preflop every other hand, he wont even be able to put you on a range of hands. When you put out a continaution bet with crap, what is he going to do? He has crap as well. When the flop comes out AK7, he wont think you raised preflop with AK, becuase yuou have been raising Everything.

One think you have to remmeber heads up is that no one will hit the flop. I think rippy once said that only 30% of the time will someone hit a flop. Hell that means that when your holding your K5, and the flop comes 2c9h5s. Shit you probably have the best hand!

[ADWCTA]

Yeah... that works when the blinds are low, but in a SnG, when it comes to HU (i might not have been clear about this, but I'm only concerned with placing 1st or 2nd in SnG, not a HU game), the blinds are always going to be around 10% of the total chips in the game.

How do you play in that situation. (At Party Poker, you're never going to run into a situation where at HU in a SnG, the blinds are below 200/400. Everyone starts out with 800 chips so total chips in game is 8k).

So you raise just about everytime you see a K or an A in your hand, what about the other side of the equation? When'd you CALL his bluff? What happens if you hit bottom pair, make a bet, and he re-raises you all in? In the battle between 1st and 2nd, you don't get a second chance. You mess up one big hand bad and 90% of the time you won't recover. There's no precendent to go on, no previous reads hold true. Once you make that bet, do you go in regardless? Or will you always fold to a re-raise without top pair? There's definantly a "right" way to play HU at high blind levels (when you have no chance to get a read, and reads are mostly impossible at this stage anyway, if you can get a read... tell me how). The game becomes so structured at that point that there should be a set formula you can follow for "best' results. Of course it'll all still rest on luck, but the question is, what is THE most profitable way (you're never going to hit even 90% success rate, but I'll settle for a 51%)?

[vqc]

try this for a while,
raise with 2 suited, Ax, or Kx.

also try this
if you are the small blind, call his raise, and push the flop.
looks like this
preflop: you complete, he raise, you call
flop: you push, he thinks....

[ADWCTA]

try this for a while,
raise with 2 suited, Ax, or Kx.

also try this
if you are the small blind, call his raise, and push the flop.
looks like this
preflop: you complete, he raise, you call
flop: you push, he thinks....

Party Poker sets it up that Small Blind acts first and Big Blind is dealer. So you'll only get a chance to push if you're Small Blind. When you're in the position of defending your blind, he's the one first to act. What if you call the raise and he pushes?

[vqc]

IF you are the big blind.
Preflop , he raises, and you call.
Post flop, he pushes, you think

This essentially puts you into the postion that you want to put him into with the situation that I presented. This is why the move is so effective. What range of hands do you put him on? Does the flop seem like it would hit him, thus warranting a push? Did he have a big hand before the flop? Did the flop hit you? Thats something thats just situational dependant and your just going to have to get some experience.

[ADWCTA]

Thx for all the help everyone.

Experience, blah. That just means THAT much more money i could have won. It's understandable, but does experience REALLY help here? If you programmed a bot to run HU vs. the best in Poker with some randomization variables in place and simulated 1000 games under the conditions I've outlined (Party Poker style, blinds are killer), would the Pro record anything significantly greater than 50%?

Seeing as I have little HU experience (only about 20ish games where i placed 1st/2nd), and I have no idea how to read players in HU, I figured I'd reason this out logically and become a bot. While I'm playing this set meathod, I'll see if I can gain some experience in how to read my opponent and see if my reads get better.

Here's the system I plan to impliment in HU, any suggestions for a fine tuning? (I built the re-raise preflop to be very random because I figure If he had nothing, he would fold and if he had something, any marginal hands like Ax or Kx would have a good chance fo being dominated... so random actrually might work better.)

Strategy:

PREFLOP: Last to act, Call All-In Raise or Re-Raise All In
XX
AK-AJ
KQ

PREFLOP: Last to act, Re-Raise All In (If he is not pot committed and you have 6xBB)
Any Clubs or Diamond Suited Hand (randomizes to 12.5%)

PREFLOP: First to act, Raise Minimum
XX
AK-A7
KQ-K8
QJ –Q9
JT
If You Folded Previous Hand and Hand Is Not Spade/Heart Offsuit (87.5% chance if previous hand is folded)

POSTFLOP (When First To Act)
Bet
- He Calls
o Keep betting if you hold Middle Pair + Over card or better
o Check/Fold if you do not
- He Re-raises All In
o Call if you have High Pair or better
o Call with anything or any draw if you are pot committed
o Fold if you do not

POSTFLOP (Last To Act)
He Checks
- Bet
o He Calls
 Keep betting if you hold Middle Pair + Over card or better
 Check/Fold if you do not
o He Re-Raises All In
 Call if you have High Pair or better
 Call with anything or any draw if you are pot committed
 Fold if you do not
He Bets
- Re-raise All In if you have High Pair, Over pair, Two Pair, Trips,
- Re-raise All In if you have Flush Draw, or Open Ended Straight Draw AND he is not pot committed
- Fold if you do not

[The_Cheat]

Yeah... that works when the blinds are low, but in a SnG, when it comes to HU (i might not have been clear about this, but I'm only concerned with placing 1st or 2nd in SnG, not a HU game), the blinds are always going to be around 10% of the total chips in the game.

How do you play in that situation. (At Party Poker, you're never going to run into a situation where at HU in a SnG, the blinds are below 200/400. Everyone starts out with 800 chips so total chips in game is 8k).

So you raise just about everytime you see a K or an A in your hand, what about the other side of the equation? When'd you CALL his bluff? What happens if you hit bottom pair, make a bet, and he re-raises you all in? In the battle between 1st and 2nd, you don't get a second chance. You mess up one big hand bad and 90% of the time you won't recover. There's no precendent to go on, no previous reads hold true. Once you make that bet, do you go in regardless? Or will you always fold to a re-raise without top pair? There's definantly a "right" way to play HU at high blind levels (when you have no chance to get a read, and reads are mostly impossible at this stage anyway, if you can get a read... tell me how). The game becomes so structured at that point that there should be a set formula you can follow for "best' results. Of course it'll all still rest on luck, but the question is, what is THE most profitable way (you're never going to hit even 90% success rate, but I'll settle for a 51%)?

you sound scared. scared money never wins. Ja Rule can tell you that. So what if you lose a few big blinds. sooner or later, you will HIT a flop that you have been raising, and he will be pissed that you have been betting at him, he will put you AI, you will giggle and call, and you just won the SnG. Done. Over. You won.

[AHiltz]

The most important thing heads up is to make your opponent think "WTF is going on here". I change gears many times over the course of a heads up.

It also helps to see the betting patterns of the enemy. If you KNOW he will bet into you if you check a flop/turn, do so with the goods and then blast him for what he's worth.

Over the last 25 times HU at the end of a SnG, I have 19 wins.

[drmcboy]

Stop playing party SNGs.

[ADWCTA]

Cheat:
I am scared, that doesn't mean I play scared. It's on-line poker, can't get reads that way. After the first 3 orbits I take the same amount of time every hand whether I fold or raise.

To see a flop, you're going to have to call a preflop raise. After the call you're down 1k in the pot. If you have 3k chips and your opponant has 5k, that means you get to see 2 flops before you're blinded out. Waiting for a flop to hit is not a luxury that you have unless your opponant never defends his blinds.

And yeah, drmc, I should stop playing party... just too bad that that's the only site with a program to tell you who the fish are. Makes life that much easier. (I'm switching whenever they start tracking SnG players on other sites).

[The_Cheat]

Cheat:
I am scared, that doesn't mean I play scared.

not to be arguementative, but yes it does.

You are what you are man. Scared money doesnt win. You are on here complaining about not winning, and I am telling you it is because you are scared. Or excited.

Ya, and the SnG's on party SUCK for a tight player. I am usually like 3-1 chip lead going HU in a SnG on party. Because, with the short stacks people are too tight. A tight table + Aggro player = Success for the aggro

[jmontis]

you need courage and heart to beat NL heads up. You're probably only going to showdown 1 in 5 hands, so bet a lot.

[The_Cheat]

for sure. i dont showdown HU very often. I would say with me, it is more like 1 in 10

[DWDuck]

Another consideration to make here is the stack sizes you're at when you reach heads up. You say you're usually about half the chip lead.... how consistant is this? How often are you the big stack? I think this is part of the problem, and it was brought up in another one of your posts. You should start concentrating more on your bubble play. I suspect with 4 or 5 left you're playing too tight. I find most of the SNG players on Party play this way... they want to get into the money badly, so they camp on monsters and fold everything else. Once the blinds get to 50/100, and even more at 100/200, start attacking every unraised pot (within reason...). Force people to make hard decisions for their stacks. You'll find that if you work to improve your bubble play more, you'll be hitting HU with the big stack more often than not. A graph of my SNG stats show two peaks. I have a small peak at 4th place, where I bubble out.... the much larger peak is for 1st place though. This is caused by aggressive bubble play putting me in a great position to win. I'm losing a couple % in my ITM value, but the rate of return increases with more 1st place showings. Pound them on the bubble, then you'll be in a position to pound them heads up ala The_Cheat.

Darkwing

[The_Cheat]

for sure DW. Pound them in a single table SNG. Especially on Party. Here is a good tip for you. Play exactly opposite of your table. If you are at a tight table, play aggressive. If you are at a maniac table, tighten down. Know your opponents, and take all their chips. Its simple

[ADWCTA]

thx for the advice, I think I'm actrually playing too aggresive on the bubble. I'm never blinded out, just preflop raising with decent chip stack and getting called by pocket pair or a coinflip. And when I'm at HU, I'm 1:2 underdog about 70% of the time and 20% the other way around. About 10% we're pretty much 1:1. I don't play that tight at all actrually, my flops seen is usually around 25% and preflop raise is around 15% (not counting all ins). As the blinds get higher I start stealing the blinds (but never to a maniacal level, I would steal about half the time all folds to me in mid/late position and only with good hands early position).

I'm sure that if you played vs me you'd never catagorize me as scared. Maybe tight early on, depending on the hands I get, but my mid/late game definantly not and that's where I run into trouble, like AK or AQ catching my preflop raise.

Aggresive play hasn't worked for me on the bubble unless I'm chip lead, which involves catching something early on (which doesn't happen often enough for me to rely on it). Duck, do you always get chip lead when bubble comes? Or do you just win your coinflips or what? Even at getting called 1 of every 5 steal attempts (and from my experience it's more like 1 in 3), you'd still need to win 1-2 coinflips on the bubble to make it (and for every coinflip you miss, you have to make up for it by winning another one). That all adds up to a very low %. Are people just not calling you? (where'd you guys play with all those people won't call you...)

[ADWCTA]

Well, just finished another 20+2 SnG, this time the table was full of players who place 40%+ ITM. Very Tight table, after getting re-raised all in when I raised preflop my A9, I folded... only to have BB show his 24o ::mutters:: then got lucky on pocket Qs and AKs... made ITM, on the second hand after ITM chip lead took out 3rd place. So now I'm an 1:3 underdog, using the strategy I developed, I managed to climb up to 3:1 before he eventrually overtook me anyway, killing my comeback.

Any specific plans to deal with players who just push ALL IN every other hand? (caught him once when I got QT, and he upset me once with a dominated hand when I called him... do you start calling these players with marginal hands or just keep letting your blinds go and trying to take his and forcing him to make the call?)

It seems more logical for you to be the one calling in this situation becuase you know that he'll raise 50% time with absolute crap, whereas he'll only call you with something decent - good. Any thoughts on how to deal with an ALL IN maniac?

[Theeggman]

When I'm HU I'll always raise if I'm going to play a hand. But, once in a while I'll give up my SB to him just to give the impression that I'll only play with good cards. This gives me more opportunities to steal.

[DWDuck]

Depending on the table situation and your stack sizes, you should consider pushing all-in with A9 to steal the blind. If folding to an all-in would cripple you when you do a 3xBB raise, get your chips in there for the steal. 3xBB raises for steals work well when you have the stack to deal with a big defense. If you don't, then force the other guy do make the tough decision, don't let him do that to you.

As far as dealing with the maniac... that's a tough one. I find my blind stealing effectiveness good enough that it more than pays for my blinds. As long as you can average one blind steal an orbit, you pay for your blinds (when the maniac steals them). Often enough you'll get a good hand eventually, and make that maniac pay.

If you're getting short stacked, sometimes you have to pick a hand and hope you win the coin toss.

IF you're short stacked 70% of the time, there's a reason in there somewhere... post a few bubble plays from your HH for people here to comment on.

Darkwing

[ADWCTA]

sure, i'll post a few bubble plays

(that A9 thing happened in the second orbit. Blinds were 15/30, I raised 90, had a stack size of 600, didn't want to risk my entire stack on the chance that was bluffing, which he hasn't done yet to that point)

since i've placed second 4 out of the past 5 games... that shouldn't be hard to do....

[ADWCTA]

Example of my bad bubble play:

#Game No : 1996269928
***** Hand History for Game 1996269928 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:11897017 Level:5 Blinds(100/200) - Wednesday, May 04, 00:51:09 EDT 2005
Table Table 14953 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 4: psychic_cat ( $1795 )
Seat 5: pokeronly123 ( $1415 )
Seat 9: ADWCTA ( $720 )
Seat 3: ferrari_ny ( $2795 )
Seat 7: alumdawg22 ( $365 )
Seat 8: dyna9966 ( $910 )
Trny:11897017 Level:5
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ADWCTA [ Ts 8c ]
ADWCTA folds.
ferrari_ny folds.
psychic_cat folds.
pokeronly123 folds.
alumdawg22 is all-In [265]
dyna9966 calls [165].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ah, 6d, Jc ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9s ]
** Dealing River ** [ Kd ]
alumdawg22 shows [ 4d, Qd ] high card ace.
dyna9966 shows [ Kc, 4c ] a pair of kings.
dyna9966 wins 730 chips from the main pot with a pair of kings.
alumdawg22 finished in sixth place.
alumdawg22 has left the table.
The Small Blind left the table. The Dealer button remains in place.
Game #1996272712 starts.

#Game No : 1996272712
***** Hand History for Game 1996272712 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:11897017 Level:5 Blinds(100/200) - Wednesday, May 04, 00:51:41 EDT 2005
Table Table 14953 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 4: psychic_cat ( $1795 )
Seat 5: pokeronly123 ( $1415 )
Seat 9: ADWCTA ( $720 )
Seat 3: ferrari_ny ( $2795 )
Seat 8: dyna9966 ( $1275 )
Trny:11897017 Level:5
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ADWCTA [ Kh 7h ]
ferrari_ny folds.
psychic_cat raises [900].
pokeronly123 folds.
dyna9966 folds.
ADWCTA folds.
psychic_cat does not show cards.
psychic_cat wins 1200 chips
Game #1996277173 starts.

#Game No : 1996277173
***** Hand History for Game 1996277173 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:11897017 Level:5 Blinds(100/200) - Wednesday, May 04, 00:52:32 EDT 2005
Table Table 14953 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 4: psychic_cat ( $2095 )
Seat 5: pokeronly123 ( $1415 )
Seat 9: ADWCTA ( $520 )
Seat 3: ferrari_ny ( $2795 )
Seat 8: dyna9966 ( $1175 )
Trny:11897017 Level:5
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ADWCTA [ 8h Kh ]
psychic_cat folds.
pokeronly123 folds.
dyna9966 folds.
ADWCTA is all-In [420]
ferrari_ny calls [320].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5s, 3h, 9s ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ks ]
** Dealing River ** [ Qs ]
ADWCTA shows [ 8h, Kh ] a pair of kings.
ferrari_ny shows [ 7c, 6d ] high card king.
ADWCTA wins 1040 chips from the main pot with a pair of kings.
Game #1996279827 starts.

#Game No : 1996279827
***** Hand History for Game 1996279827 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:11897017 Level:5 Blinds(100/200) - Wednesday, May 04, 00:53:01 EDT 2005
Table Table 14953 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 4: psychic_cat ( $2095 )
Seat 5: pokeronly123 ( $1415 )
Seat 9: ADWCTA ( $1040 )
Seat 3: ferrari_ny ( $2275 )
Seat 8: dyna9966 ( $1175 )
Trny:11897017 Level:5
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ADWCTA [ 2s Ad ]
pokeronly123 folds.
dyna9966 folds.
ADWCTA is all-In [1040] (I was in good position, hadn't tried to steal psychic_cat's blinds for a few orbits now, and was just coming off an all in so they might think I have something good this time)
ferrari_ny calls [940].
psychic_cat folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9s, 3s, Jh ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qh ]
** Dealing River ** [ 4s ]
ferrari_ny shows [ 8h, 8s ] a pair of eights.
ADWCTA shows [ 2s, Ad ] high card ace.
ferrari_ny wins 2280 chips from the main pot with a pair of eights.
ADWCTA finished in fifth place.
ADWCTA has left the table.
Game #1996282287 starts.

That was bad.

This is also bad (It'll start with me getting really lucky and becoming large stack and end with 1st taking 3rd out, leaving me 1:3 underdog):

#Game No : 1998207257
***** Hand History for Game 1998207257 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:11908098 Level:4 Blinds(50/100) - Wednesday, May 04, 14:20:51 EDT 2005
Table Table 13838 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 6: FourOfaCline ( $2235 )
Seat 5: acesfull1186 ( $1950 )
Seat 9: ADWCTA ( $1070 )
Seat 3: paydirte ( $875 )
Seat 2: MarioAR ( $1630 )
Seat 7: dbass_rmt ( $240 )
Trny:11908098 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ADWCTA [ Kc Ac ]
FourOfaCline folds.
dbass_rmt is all-In [240]
ADWCTA raises [400].
MarioAR folds.
paydirte is all-In [825]
acesfull1186 folds.
ADWCTA calls [475].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7c, 9d, 6d ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Tc ]
** Dealing River ** [ Jc ]
ADWCTA shows [ Kc, Ac ] a flush, ace high.
paydirte shows [ Kh, Ks ] a pair of kings.
dbass_rmt shows [ 7h, 7d ] three of a kind, sevens.
ADWCTA wins 1270 chips from side pot #1 with a flush, ace high.
ADWCTA wins 820 chips from the main pot with a flush, ace high.
dbass_rmt finished in sixth place.
paydirte finished in fifth place.
paydirte has left the table.
dbass_rmt has left the table.
The Small Blind left the table. The Dealer button remains in place.
Game #1998209030 starts.

#Game No : 1998209030
***** Hand History for Game 1998209030 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:11908098 Level:4 Blinds(50/100) - Wednesday, May 04, 14:21:25 EDT 2005
Table Table 13838 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 6: FourOfaCline ( $2235 )
Seat 5: acesfull1186 ( $1850 )
Seat 9: ADWCTA ( $2285 )
Seat 2: MarioAR ( $1630 )
Trny:11908098 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ADWCTA [ 4s 3s ]
ADWCTA folds.
MarioAR raises [300].
acesfull1186 folds.
FourOfaCline folds.
MarioAR does not show cards.
MarioAR wins 450 chips
nh
Game #1998209809 starts.

#Game No : 1998209809
***** Hand History for Game 1998209809 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:11908098 Level:4 Blinds(50/100) - Wednesday, May 04, 14:21:39 EDT 2005
Table Table 13838 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 6: FourOfaCline ( $2135 )
Seat 5: acesfull1186 ( $1800 )
Seat 9: ADWCTA ( $2285 )
Seat 2: MarioAR ( $1780 )
Trny:11908098 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ADWCTA [ 7c 7d ]
MarioAR raises [300].
acesfull1186 folds.
FourOfaCline folds.
ADWCTA is all-In [2185]
MarioAR folds.
ADWCTA shows [ 7c, 7d ] a pair of sevens.
ADWCTA wins 2635 chips from the main pot with a pair of sevens.
Game #1998211227 starts.

#Game No : 1998211227
***** Hand History for Game 1998211227 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:11908098 Level:4 Blinds(50/100) - Wednesday, May 04, 14:22:05 EDT 2005
Table Table 13838 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 6: FourOfaCline ( $2085 )
Seat 5: acesfull1186 ( $1800 )
Seat 9: ADWCTA ( $2635 )
Seat 2: MarioAR ( $1480 )
Trny:11908098 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ADWCTA [ 8d 9h ]
acesfull1186 raises [300].
FourOfaCline folds.
ADWCTA folds.
MarioAR folds.
acesfull1186 does not show cards.
acesfull1186 wins 450 chips
Game #1998211954 starts.

#Game No : 1998211954
***** Hand History for Game 1998211954 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:11908098 Level:5 Blinds(100/200) - Wednesday, May 04, 14:22:18 EDT 2005
Table Table 13838 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 6: FourOfaCline ( $2085 )
Seat 5: acesfull1186 ( $1950 )
Seat 9: ADWCTA ( $2585 )
Seat 2: MarioAR ( $1380 )
Trny:11908098 Level:5
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ADWCTA [ 8h 9s ]
FourOfaCline raises [550].
ADWCTA folds.
MarioAR folds.
acesfull1186 folds.
FourOfaCline does not show cards.
FourOfaCline wins 850 chips
Game #1998213095 starts.

#Game No : 1998213095
***** Hand History for Game 1998213095 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:11908098 Level:5 Blinds(100/200) - Wednesday, May 04, 14:22:39 EDT 2005
Table Table 13838 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 6: FourOfaCline ( $2385 )
Seat 5: acesfull1186 ( $1750 )
Seat 9: ADWCTA ( $2585 )
Seat 2: MarioAR ( $1280 )
Trny:11908098 Level:5
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ADWCTA [ Ts Ac ]
ADWCTA raises [600].
MarioAR folds.
acesfull1186 folds.
FourOfaCline folds.
ADWCTA does not show cards.
ADWCTA wins 900 chips
Game #1998214328 starts.

#Game No : 1998214328
***** Hand History for Game 1998214328 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:11908098 Level:5 Blinds(100/200) - Wednesday, May 04, 14:23:02 EDT 2005
Table Table 13838 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 6: FourOfaCline ( $2185 )
Seat 5: acesfull1186 ( $1650 )
Seat 9: ADWCTA ( $2885 )
Seat 2: MarioAR ( $1280 )
Trny:11908098 Level:5
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ADWCTA [ 3c Kd ]
MarioAR folds.
acesfull1186 folds.
FourOfaCline raises [500].
ADWCTA folds.
FourOfaCline does not show cards.
FourOfaCline wins 800 chips
Game #1998215263 starts.

#Game No : 1998215263
***** Hand History for Game 1998215263 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:11908098 Level:5 Blinds(100/200) - Wednesday, May 04, 14:23:19 EDT 2005
Table Table 13838 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 6: FourOfaCline ( $2385 )
Seat 5: acesfull1186 ( $1650 )
Seat 9: ADWCTA ( $2685 )
Seat 2: MarioAR ( $1280 )
Trny:11908098 Level:5
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ADWCTA [ Ts Kc ]
acesfull1186 raises [475].
FourOfaCline folds.
ADWCTA folds.
MarioAR folds.
acesfull1186 does not show cards.
acesfull1186 wins 775 chips
Game #1998216180 starts.

#Game No : 1998216180
***** Hand History for Game 1998216180 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:11908098 Level:5 Blinds(100/200) - Wednesday, May 04, 14:23:36 EDT 2005
Table Table 13838 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 6: FourOfaCline ( $2385 )
Seat 5: acesfull1186 ( $1950 )
Seat 9: ADWCTA ( $2585 )
Seat 2: MarioAR ( $1080 )
Trny:11908098 Level:5
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ADWCTA [ Th Ts ]
FourOfaCline folds.
ADWCTA raises [600].
MarioAR folds.
acesfull1186 folds.
ADWCTA does not show cards.
ADWCTA wins 900 chips
Game #1998217454 starts.

#Game No : 1998217454
***** Hand History for Game 1998217454 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:11908098 Level:5 Blinds(100/200) - Wednesday, May 04, 14:23:59 EDT 2005
Table Table 13838 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 6: FourOfaCline ( $2385 )
Seat 5: acesfull1186 ( $1750 )
Seat 9: ADWCTA ( $2885 )
Seat 2: MarioAR ( $980 )
Trny:11908098 Level:5
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ADWCTA [ 2d 7c ]
ADWCTA folds.
MarioAR folds.
acesfull1186 raises [300].
FourOfaCline folds.
acesfull1186 does not show cards.
acesfull1186 wins 600 chips
dam
Game #1998218299 starts.

#Game No : 1998218299
***** Hand History for Game 1998218299 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:11908098 Level:5 Blinds(100/200) - Wednesday, May 04, 14:24:15 EDT 2005
Table Table 13838 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 6: FourOfaCline ( $2185 )
Seat 5: acesfull1186 ( $1950 )
Seat 9: ADWCTA ( $2885 )
Seat 2: MarioAR ( $980 )
Trny:11908098 Level:5
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ADWCTA [ 8s 9h ]
MarioAR is all-In [980]
acesfull1186 folds.
FourOfaCline folds.
ADWCTA folds.
MarioAR does not show cards.
MarioAR wins 1280 chips
Game #1998219186 starts.

#Game No : 1998219186
***** Hand History for Game 1998219186 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:11908098 Level:5 Blinds(100/200) - Wednesday, May 04, 14:24:31 EDT 2005
Table Table 13838 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 6: FourOfaCline ( $2085 )
Seat 5: acesfull1186 ( $1950 )
Seat 9: ADWCTA ( $2685 )
Seat 2: MarioAR ( $1280 )
Trny:11908098 Level:5
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ADWCTA [ Th 3d ]
acesfull1186 folds.
FourOfaCline folds.
ADWCTA folds.
MarioAR does not show cards.
MarioAR wins 300 chips
Game #1998219794 starts.

#Game No : 1998219794
***** Hand History for Game 1998219794 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:11908098 Level:5 Blinds(100/200) - Wednesday, May 04, 14:24:42 EDT 2005
Table Table 13838 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 6: FourOfaCline ( $2085 )
Seat 5: acesfull1186 ( $1950 )
Seat 9: ADWCTA ( $2585 )
Seat 2: MarioAR ( $1380 )
Trny:11908098 Level:5
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ADWCTA [ 4h Qs ]
FourOfaCline folds.
ADWCTA folds.
MarioAR folds.
acesfull1186 does not show cards.
acesfull1186 wins 300 chips
Game #1998220265 starts.

#Game No : 1998220265
***** Hand History for Game 1998220265 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:11908098 Level:5 Blinds(100/200) - Wednesday, May 04, 14:24:50 EDT 2005
Table Table 13838 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 6: FourOfaCline ( $2085 )
Seat 5: acesfull1186 ( $2050 )
Seat 9: ADWCTA ( $2585 )
Seat 2: MarioAR ( $1280 )
Trny:11908098 Level:5
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ADWCTA [ 5s Ah ]
ADWCTA raises [600].
MarioAR folds.
acesfull1186 folds.
FourOfaCline is all-In [1885]
ADWCTA folds. (good move?)
FourOfaCline does not show cards.
FourOfaCline wins 2785 chips
Game #1998221184 starts.

#Game No : 1998221184
***** Hand History for Game 1998221184 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:11908098 Level:6 Blinds(150/300) - Wednesday, May 04, 14:25:08 EDT 2005
Table Table 13838 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 6: FourOfaCline ( $2785 )
Seat 5: acesfull1186 ( $1950 )
Seat 9: ADWCTA ( $1985 )
Seat 2: MarioAR ( $1280 )
Trny:11908098 Level:6
Blinds(150/300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ADWCTA [ 9h Qd ]
MarioAR folds.
acesfull1186 raises [800].
FourOfaCline is all-In [2635]
ADWCTA folds.
acesfull1186 folds.
FourOfaCline does not show cards.
FourOfaCline wins 3885 chips
Game #1998222081 starts.

#Game No : 1998222081
***** Hand History for Game 1998222081 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:11908098 Level:6 Blinds(150/300) - Wednesday, May 04, 14:25:24 EDT 2005
Table Table 13838 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 6: FourOfaCline ( $3885 )
Seat 5: acesfull1186 ( $1150 )
Seat 9: ADWCTA ( $1685 )
Seat 2: MarioAR ( $1280 )
Trny:11908098 Level:6
Blinds(150/300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ADWCTA [ 4d 8h ]
acesfull1186 is all-In [1150]
FourOfaCline folds.
ADWCTA folds.
MarioAR calls [850].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jc, Qs, Qd ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7h ]
** Dealing River ** [ 2c ]
acesfull1186 shows [ 9s, Ks ] a pair of queens.
MarioAR shows [ 3d, 3c ] two pairs, queens and threes.
MarioAR wins 2450 chips from the main pot with two pairs, queens and threes.
acesfull1186 finished in fourth place.
acesfull1186 has left the table.
Game #1998223221 starts.

#Game No : 1998223221
***** Hand History for Game 1998223221 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:11908098 Level:6 Blinds(150/300) - Wednesday, May 04, 14:25:46 EDT 2005
Table Table 13838 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 6: FourOfaCline ( $3885 )
Seat 9: ADWCTA ( $1535 )
Seat 2: MarioAR ( $2580 )
Trny:11908098 Level:6
Blinds(150/300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ADWCTA [ Th 4d ]
ADWCTA folds. (Should I have tried to steal the pot here? Seems a bit early.)
MarioAR calls [150].
FourOfaCline checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4s, Kd, Js ]
MarioAR checks.
FourOfaCline bets [400].
MarioAR folds.
FourOfaCline does not show cards.
FourOfaCline wins 1000 chips
JOIN THE CRUISE AND PLAY FOR 10 MILLION DOLLARS!!! Play the SEMI-FINALS tomorrow. YOU HAVE 1 day(s) TO REGISTER!
Game #1998224316 starts.

#Game No : 1998224316
***** Hand History for Game 1998224316 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:11908098 Level:6 Blinds(150/300) - Wednesday, May 04, 14:26:05 EDT 2005
Table Table 13838 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 6: FourOfaCline ( $4185 )
Seat 9: ADWCTA ( $1535 )
Seat 2: MarioAR ( $2280 )
Trny:11908098 Level:6
Blinds(150/300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ADWCTA [ 3s 5h ]
MarioAR raises [1000].
FourOfaCline is all-In [4035]
ADWCTA folds.
MarioAR is all-In [1280]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Td, 5d, 8h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2s ]
** Dealing River ** [ Kc ]
MarioAR shows [ 7c, Ah ] high card ace.
FourOfaCline shows [ Tc, Jd ] a pair of tens.
FourOfaCline wins 1905 chips from side pot #1 with a pair of tens.
FourOfaCline wins 4860 chips from the main pot with a pair of tens.
MarioAR finished in third place and won $40.
MarioAR has left the table.
Game #1998225945 starts.

So yeah, I'm averaging a 50% attempt to steal pot preflop when no bets are before me. That's pretty reasonable right? (Should I up it?)
And usually some variant of this happens. Either someone else gets caught or I get caught. FourOfaCline was about to go all in at every opportunity (and did in HU... which was how I managed to even up with him, but wasn't able to finish his 69o off). The HU section of this is long, but it basically involved him going all in about 75% of the time preflop, me calling him about three times, got burned once on an upset (he wouldda been gone if it had gone my way i was 2:1 favorite). Me going all in about 75% of the time, him calling twice, he got burned once by an upset, once I had him cold. But basically a game of all in chicken requiring very little skill.

[DWDuck]

(that A9 thing happened in the second orbit. Blinds were 15/30, I raised 90, had a stack size of 600, didn't want to risk my entire stack on the chance that was bluffing, which he hasn't done yet to that point)

My suggestion here would be to not steal blinds at 15/30. They aren't worth it, and you'll lose more money (IMHO) with this play than you'll make.

Darkwing

[DWDuck]

Ok... here are some comments on your play:

1996279827 [A2o]
Careful stealing from the big-stack... they will call you more often than somebody with a stack near your size. I might have done the same thing with the ace.... too bad it didn't work.

1998207257 [AKs]
Push all in instead of raising here. Make sure anybody willing to go against you is putting all their chips in. Just my personal IMHO. Worked out for you obviously...

1998209809 [77]
I like the push... but I don't like the showing cards. Why give them ANY information? Some people here might disagree, but why tell him you had something? Now he might think you only defend when you have something... make him nervous about stealing your blinds! Don't give people any more information than you need...

1998214328 [K3o]
I'd be interested to hear what other people do here. It was a weak raise against your blind.. likely a blind steal. I'd either push, or call to see a flop and push with rags or K. A few push backs (WITHOUT SHOWING CARDS) will make people wary of stealing your blinds. You could afford to lose this. Likely you're a coin flip, plus the added possibility (pretty high if you ask me) of him folding.

1998215263 [KTo]
Not your big blind... but Aces puts out a weak blind steal attempt. Try a resteal here... throw out $1000 or push all in. KT is solid 4-handed... take control of the table! There was $800 here that likely could have been in your stack. This hand could have made a big difference.

1998219186 [T3o]
Even though you're SB, I'd throw out a $700 raise here. The guy won't call with nothing since his stack is at $1200 on the bubble.

1998219794 [Q4o]
Very next hand... an even better chance to steal in position from the second small stack. A 3xBB raise should do, but I like to mix it up... put in $1000 and make the guy realize that if he calls his stack is in danger. He's not the small stack, and if he folds he won't be. If he calls and loses he will be though, and he knows it. Keep the pressure on! Occasionally you'll lose these... but if you keep pressure on like this, you'll make more than you'll lose.

1998220265 [A5o]
I like your fold... if you find a 3XBB steal isn't working on somebody, push all in. If you find a guy likes defending, pick somebody else to steal on. I'm betting one of these 4 (likely 2) will fold to most attempts. Target them. If a guy tends to defend his blinds more pushing all in, then either don't steal all the time from him, and when you do... push your stack in. Don't let him put you to the hard decision. This guy does the same move on the next play. It's a good one to make on the bubble too. If somebody is obviously stealing your blinds, push back with an all-in once or twice and he'll back off. Obviously if he has the goods you're cooked, but more often than not they don't have the goods.

In short, take control of this table. Like Rippy always says (I think it's Rippy... probably others too) make the table wonder what YOU are going to do. Make them fear you. If you pulled these moves here, you're likely going to be big stack by quite a bit. Obviously sometimes you will get bitten... but I'm betting this one you could have been huge going into the final 2. When people do weak raises (2xBB, 2.5xBB), they sometimes are trapping, but USUALLY are hoping for a cheap steal. Punish them for this and push them all in and watch them fold like a cheap suit.

Maybe I'm one of the maniacs you talk about.... but I'm big stack more often than not when it's HU...

Darkwing

[The_Cheat]

Ya man, you got some bubble leaks for sure. Catch someone like Rada on IRC some night at watch him. Or you can sit in and watch me for a while, and I will tell you why I am betting/folding. It helps to get inside the head of a succesfull player. Seriously though, watch rada in a SnG.

[ADWCTA]

nice... yeah there were some times I definantly could have pushed back... the risk is if he wasn't bluffing I'd be screwed (and he's been pretty aggresive so that works both ways).

For the KT play, pushing him back would have instantly turned me from chip lead to lowest stacked should he call me, and at that point if he doesn't call me, he'd be tied with low stack and it's his BB next move. Unless you have him on a complete bluff from UTG, I think he has a good chance of calling me. (thought about it though, decided to play it safe)

so how do I go about watching one of you guys play a SnG?

[DWDuck]

Your best bet is probably to do what The_Cheat suggested. Get on IRC and find out when Rada or someone is playing. I've never been on IRC with those guys yet.... so you may want to find out from somebody else.

Best of luck.

Darkwing

[Moetu]

Stop playing party SNGs.

Can you tell me why you say this? ive been playing on party and doing just blah break even so far? where do you suggest to play 5-10$ SNG's?

[ihategnomes]

I like stars way better then PP, the blinds are not based on hands dealt, you start with 1500 in chips as well.

[drmcboy]

drmcboy wrote:
Stop playing party SNGs.


Can you tell me why you say this?


Because as you correctly state by the time you get to heads up at party (in my memory, haven't been back but this was why I left) it's more like bingo than poker, you just wait for a reasonable hand and shove your chips it. Today at lunch I played HU for almost 25 minutes in a 1 T SNG on stars, I just don't think that can happen at party unless you both just keep winning flips when you're the small stack.

UB & PS both have twice the starting chips and the blinds are time rather than hand based - it makes a HUGE difference and allows for a lot more time to play.

[The_Cheat]

so how do I go about watching one of you guys play a SnG?

ya man, find me on IRC anytime, and i will break down a whole SnG for you. Or you could PM me, and we can set up a time when you can watch. I would be happy to help you out, I would probly play better with someone watching too. haha